Hellas futebol

[Faliro]

Thoughts on Garcia?

He was grabbing the olympiacos badge today and clapping the fans in the stadium. He may have fallen in love like Valverde and Michel did. I like the catalan.

[Festivus]

Faliro, you probably have addressed this point before, but this thread is massive and I'm too lazy to backtrack so let me ask you something:

How do you, and Greeks in general, view the Byzantine Empire part of Greek history? And Justinian and Theodora?

I'm asking this because I've been playing Civ V and Theodora is the leader of Byzantium:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0T-t1k4qf2U

Back when Haggia Sophia didn't have minarets...

[Faliro]

Faliro, you probably have addressed this point before, but this thread is massive and I'm too lazy to backtrack so let me ask you something:

How do you, and Greeks in general, view the Byzantine Empire part of Greek history? And Justinian and Theodora?

I'm asking this because I've been playing Civ V and Theodora is the leader of Byzantium:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0T-t1k4qf2U

Back when Haggia Sophia didn't have minarets...

It is interesting you mention this, because just the other day I was discussing this topic with my wife. Not Justinian and Theodora specifically but the Byzantium Empire (which was actually called Romania at the time - Byzantium was a German name for the Empire created after the Empire had already fallen). What we were discussing is that when the Greeks finally won their freedom from the Ottoman Turks in the 1830s after 400 years of pain and suffering under the Sunni yoke - the Greeks suddenly had to decide what their new nation would look like. A few stated the strongest theme is that of Christian Byzantium and the new nation should use Byzantium as its cornerstone. After all it was the Church that had helped preserve Greeks as a people. However many others stated the classical age should be the blueprint for the new nation - and more specifically 5th Century Athens. The latter idea won out and Greeks started naming their children names like Pericles and Achilles and the capital was moved from the Peloponnese (the first area freed) to Athens. All the new streets in Athens were given names like -Sofokleous, Sokratous, Ippokratous etc - they still bear those names. Streets like this were built:



Now in answer to your question. Personally I have interest in the Byzantine Empire - the period was fascinating - however I think the era damaged the Greeks massively and I strongly agree with Byzantine historical figures like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gemistus_Pletho who wished to return the Greeks to the worship of the Olympian Gods. The Byzantines unravelled almost everything the Ancient Greeks created - all in the name of Christianity. Also the minute the Byzantines passed ridiculous legislation - like turning central Anatolia into a rabbit hunting area - they were never able to build armies large enough to defend themselves and the Empire fell very slowly as a result. Byzantium is the collapse of a massive Empire in slow motion - it lasted twice as long as the Roman Empire. However losing the 'Greek fire' technology due to over compartmentalisation.. and other idiotic occurrences.. the Empire was always going to end badly.

Greeks in general are fairly interested in Byzantium but not overly so in general. There are many experts on the period and many Greeks who feel it was the most important epoch. The reason this is - is because they feel - like most Greeks, that the church is what kept Greeks in existence under the Turks - in a similar way that many Greeks think because the communists in Greece were those most actively against the Nazi occupation of Greece - they should be rewarded eternally. So to sum up - there is interest but not overtly. Greeks in general are not as interested as they should be in their past imo. The Greeks who built the modern Greek nation in the 1830s are no longer in charge of the country. There are around 50 Turkish soap operas on during day time TV, many Greeks and even the Greek Government think the idea of borders is stupid. Leftism is rampant. Many Greek academics who are the descendants of communists publish papers every year saying that the Greek 'race' and nation is a fabrication and Greeks are simply 'Turkish Christians.' Hellenic culture is dying very fast. It could survive the Persians, Romans, Goths, Turks, Slavs, Nazis and every single invader - however the country could not survive communist thought that teaches there is no such thing as 'Greek' culture. Greek universities are saturated with far leftists and most Greeks leave thinking historical patriotism is a fascist ideal.

[Festivus]

Really? talk about good timing. 

Didn't know turks exported tons of soap operas. I know arabs like their soaps but had no idea turks did as well.

You kinda forget at times that large parts of the Greek empire used to be in what today is Turkey. Although I believe there are considerable genetic differences between Greeks and Turks in general? Must be because lots of Turks are descendants of Asians. Turkish people as an ethnicity are hard to define really. You have all sorts of turks, from White ones to obviously Asian-like ones and Arab-like ones.

Speaking of Byzanthium... Hagia Sophia used to look different. For one thing, it wasn't muslim, thus had no minarets. Ever been to Turkey btw?

Greeks aren't that interested in the past really? That is surprising considering Greece's golden age is long gone. I mean, that's literally what makes people remember Greece these days still. Its past. Modern day Greece is hardly an influential country on a global scale. Before the crisis I never really heard about Greece on the news. So if it's not for their past, what else do Greeks have left to romantize about their nation and heritage? 

Tbh history is full of once great nations/regions that have pretty much fallen fallen into irrelevance. Lithuania, Mongolia, Babylon(now Iraq basically), etc.

As for politics and leftism... well I dunno really much about that, really. So I don't really have much to add to it. As for Greek culture dying and such... well I think that is one of the major negatives of globalisation. While globalisation has helped bring a lot of people from all over the world closer, it has also slowly been making the world more homogeneous culturally and socially wise. For example, I really dislike how pervasive American pop culture can be to the point that people in Europe, Australia, etc. try to import concepts and things from the American context and think it can apply well to their countries.

That being said, I don't really have an issue with importing influences from other cultures and such, but this isn't the 19th century anymore where it was much less pervasive. USA is too powerful when it comes to their pop culture and can influence people's thoughts easily through Hollywood. Someone said in the Politica Internacional thread once that Hollywood has really distorted people's view of history, which is true. If I used Hollywood as my history textbook I'd think that Americans were the main reason the Nazis lost WW2, for example. 

I remember a year or two ago me and many others had pretty much an all night discussion about the 80s and the 90s in the Competições Nacionais thread and a few users were basically saying that it feels like the world has become more boring and less unique/authentic in the past 10-15 years. By this they meant that until the 21st century it seemed like everything had its own identity(music, fashion, etc) while nowadays everything seems to be more homogenised. Perhaps that was mostly the "back in my day!" nostalgia talking but I can see that point. When it comes to music, this American guy told me once that mainstream music in USA became more generic after the Clinton administration nationalised radio stations or something like that.

Food for thought.

[Faliro]

Really? talk about good timing. 

Didn't know turks exported tons of soap operas. I know arabs like their soaps but had no idea turks did as well.

Yes Turkish soaps are exported on a an industrial scale into the Balkans.

You kinda forget at times that large parts of the Greek empire used to be in what today is Turkey.

Well Anatolia was Hittite, then Greek from around 1200BC, then Greek but controlled by the Romans - then Byzantine - then finally Ottoman. The Ottomans were originally from China and travelled across Eurasia to get to Anatolia. I don't see the why any of that means Greeks should be force fed Turkish soaps all day long - in Turkish. 

Although I believe there are considerable genetic differences between Greeks and Turks in general? Must be because lots of Turks are descendants of Asians. Turkish people as an ethnicity are hard to define really. You have all sorts of turks, from White ones to obviously Asian-like ones and Arab-like ones.

Turks are mishmash of Middle Eastern - a little Far Eastern (where they came from over 1400 years ago) - they also have plenty of Greek and Armenian DNA with traces of slav and other assortments. Greeks however are very homogeneous genetically and plot closest to Southern Italians. Many Apulians in turn score over 80% Greek for example.

Speaking of Byzanthium... Hagia Sophia used to look different. For one thing, it wasn't muslim, thus had no minarets. Ever been to Turkey btw?

I went there when I was 3. My mother decided to tell everyone she met she was a Greek..

Greeks aren't that interested in the past really? That is surprising considering Greece's golden age is long gone. I mean, that's literally what makes people remember Greece these days still. Its past. Modern day Greece is hardly an influential country on a global scale. Before the crisis I never really heard about Greece on the news. So if it's not for their past, what else do Greeks have left to romantize about their nation and heritage? 

I would say around half - a critical mass - of Greeks are either communists or leftists. They are more likely to apologise for Turks, compare Alexander the Great to Hitler or talk about how capitalism has destroyed their country than give two shits about how Xenophon survived his expedition into Persia for example.    The right wng Greeks are very proud of the ancients - they are all that is left of the Greek people in reality. It is also interesting to note that the Greek communists in the civil war wished to remove Greece as an independent entity and join Greece with soviet Russia. They recruited many slavs into their army for that very reason. Many of these communist Greeks have very ambiguous surnames which suggests they were originally slavs who were converted to orthodoxy by the Byzantines.

Tbh history is full of once great nations/regions that have pretty much fallen fallen into irrelevance. Lithuania, Mongolia, Babylon(now Iraq basically), etc.

True - but put it like this. When people think of Western Civilisation - a lot of the time they wonder off into Mozart, Dickens and Jesus's teachings - Europe's Judaeo-Christian heritage/values. This is because we allowed the Abrahamic desert religions of the Chrismusjews to dominate the West..

I always saw the foundation stones of Western Civilisation as inspired by Pagan Ancient Greece. Getting smashed on wine - and worshipping the right to get smashed - even having a God of wine who was one of the 12 Olympians...attending festivals 24/7 (festivals of music/ dancing/ theatre/ etc)... going out to the movies..(Ancient Greek Theatre)... worshipping sport (Olympics, endless sporting competitions - every town had 100s of gyms) and worshipping beauty (ancient Greeks even had beauty contests..) and then at the end of it getting vote on what you think the direction of the country should be.. The Christians were - and still are horrified of ancient Greece and ancient Rome - however - the core soul of a European - for the most part - is still in 5th Century Athens. Work, pleasure - the worship of technology and as much intellectualism as you can handle. I think this trumps anything anyone else has given to the West.

As for politics and leftism... well I dunno really much about that, really. So I don't really have much to add to it. As for Greek culture dying and such... well I think that is one of the major negatives of globalisation. While globalisation has helped bring a lot of people from all over the world closer, it has also slowly been making the world more homogeneous culturally and socially wise. For example, I really dislike how pervasive American pop culture can be to the point that people in Europe, Australia, etc. try to import concepts and things from the American context and think it can apply well to their countries.

Globalism is a leftist principle. However - you can make it very simple for yourself. Anything to do with removing individual culture - thus creating identity politics - is of the left. Anything worshipping or encouraging the differences between cultures is associated with the right. The problem with Greece is there is no middle. There is the left and the right. There are no centrist parties. So everything is polarised.

That being said, I don't really have an issue with importing influences from other cultures and such, but this isn't the 19th century anymore where it was much less pervasive. USA is too powerful when it comes to their pop culture and can influence people's thoughts easily through Hollywood. Someone said in the Politica Internacional thread once that Hollywood has really distorted people's view of history, which is true. If I used Hollywood as my history textbook I'd think that Americans were the main reason the Nazis lost WW2, for example. 

Well Hollywood is a Judaeo-Christian culture industry. All the Abrahamic principles are extolled. Have many kids, the bad guy is usually sexual and associated with temptation (like the devil) - the good character is morally just according to the Ten Commandments. There has to be sacrifice usually etc. Of course history gets distorted as everything has to be processed through this indoctrination.

I remember a year or two ago me and many others had pretty much an all night discussion about the 80s and the 90s in the Competições Nacionais thread and a few users were basically saying that it feels like the world has become more boring and less unique/authentic in the past 10-15 years. By this they meant that until the 21st century it seemed like everything had its own identity(music, fashion, etc) while nowadays everything seems to be more homogenised. Perhaps that was mostly the "back in my day!" nostalgia talking but I can see that point. When it comes to music, this American guy told me once that mainstream music in USA became more generic after the Clinton administration nationalised radio stations or something like that.

Food for thought.

Well it is globalisation as you said. What was sexy about Europe for me was the differences. You cross a border and there is a new language, a new way of doing things - difference beliefs, cuisine etc.  What is happening thanks to the EU (a massively backed organisation in the med btw) is that we are becoming more like the USA. Greece and Italy are simply states that have given up control of their courts, currency and future - voluntarily! Remember - It was Greeks who destroyed Delphi under command of the Emperor Theodosius. Every last foundation stone was uprooted. In the same way the Europeans have sold their souls to the EU.  I kind of like that in a way - because the minute a European dares to blame someone else for whatever their problems may be - you can instantly remind them - they voluntarily joined the EU - an organisation based in Northern Europe with a deeply globalist agenda.

It may help you to read Marx's Communist Manifesto and perhaps some Adorno on the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culture_industry. Adorno blames the culture industry on capitalism - of course. However - the roots of indoctrinating people to be identical are heavily found in the left - not the right as I explained above. 

[T1n0_SLB]

. . .I always saw the foundation stones of Western Civilisation as inspired by Pagan Ancient Greece. Getting smashed on wine - and worshipping the right to get smashed - even having a God of wine who was one of the 12 Olympians...attending festivals 24/7 (festivals of music/ dancing/ theatre/ etc)... going out to the movies..(Ancient Greek Theatre)... worshipping sport (Olympics, endless sporting competitions - every town had 100s of gyms) and worshipping beauty (ancient Greeks even had beauty contests..) and then at the end of it getting vote on what you think the direction of the country should be.. The Christians were - and still are horrified of ancient Greece and ancient Rome - however - the core soul of a European - for the most part - is still in 5th Century Athens. Work, pleasure - the worship of technology and as much intellectualism as you can handle. I think this trumps anything anyone else has given to the West . . .

i fully agree with this part.

[StellaRojas]

With all respect Faliro, I tend to disagree with your negative assessment of the legacy of the Eastern Roman Empire ( Byzantine Empire, Romania) and this opinion that it undermined the importance of the Hellenic culture. On the contrary, it was the bridge through which the Western civilization became " infected" with the Hellenic culture ( it was only in the 12th and the 13th century that the West became acquainted with the works of Aristotle. In the 15th century, out of 4.000 books in the Library of Vatican, 1000 were in Greek language). The Byzantine Empire was a unique blend of the Roman system of government, Hellenic culture and Orthodox Christianity. That is why we are taught nowadays that three cornerstones of the European civilization are: Ancient Greek culture, Roman Law and Christianity. For one thing, Iustinianus' " Corpus Iuris Civilis" is the cornerstone of modern Western legal systems and Greece itself used the Byzantine Civil Code all the way until 1945.

Among some Serbs too, there is a degree of nostalgia about " ancient religion", Perun the God of thunder and getting smashed on mead in our case ( yes, we also had it! ). Of course, Greek mythology was a lot more elaborate but still, there was nothing spiritual about it or anything that could be considered original Greek contribution to the Western civilization. After all, indulging carnal desires without limits is something universally human. In our ( Serbian) case, these aspects of ancient religion live on even in Christianity, through our tradition of slava ( patron saint) or the badnjak ( a tree placed on the fire on the Christmas Eve). This transformation was an easy one, because these ancient religions were purely ceremonial in their nature and not doctrinal, so nothing was taken away from them. In my opinion, monotheism responds to the higher level in human development, that is why it could not come into existence early on.  Of course, there is this element of Jewish messianism, but Christianity is not the uniquely Jewish teaching. I'm sure that you are aware that its philosophical foundation is largely borrowed from Plato and also, each nation that adopted Christianity ended up giving it its own footprint. Not to mention the importance of Christianity for building family values and ties, something not so present in the ancient culture.

[Faliro]

This transformation was an easy one, because these ancient religions were purely ceremonial in their nature and not doctrinal, so nothing was taken away from them.

I disagree strongly on this point. If you take for example the Ancient Greek's love of sport and contest. There has been no other record of any peoples who worshipped sport to the same extreme degree as the Ancient Greeks. Even the Greek calendar was calculated from the dates of Olympic Games across the Greek world. So why were Greeks so infatuated with sport? Simply - the games were a religious festival to Zeus. All the Olympic games across the Greek world were dedicated to Zeus. The champions were honoured and it was believed the Gods would look down beneficially among them. The religious festivals of all sports in Greece were born out of the religion itself. You see the Greeks were the total opposite to christians. Christians believe the flesh is sinful and the soul needs nourishment alone. The Ancient Greeks believed both the body and soul needed nourishment - hence their favourite saying - healthy body - healthy mind. They worshipped the gym because of its association with Heracles. They believed the better the body looked - the more favour they would receive from the Gods. Bravery and ingenuity were also worshipped. So the whole sporting movement and the greek's obsession with sport and physical brilliance is pagan based and is as far from Christianity as humanly possible. Also - the ancient Greek religion worshipped technological advancement - whereas Christianity is always worried you will offend the Jewish God by going beyond his own work. Greeks on the other hand had a God of technology - Hephaestus!

Not to mention the importance of Christianity for building family values and ties, something not so present in the ancient culture.

Family values and ties were exceptionally important in the ancient world. They were so important that simply because Xenophon's son died fighting for Athens - he was forgiven and his exile annulled. That is because the father, the wife, the son and the daughter - all their honour was connected. What was even more beautiful is that in the ancient times, people would often adopt children that were not their own and bestow upon them everything a biological son/ daughter would have. This enormity of generosity brings us onto another Christian piece of propaganda - that their religion invented charity. The Ancient Greeks believed giving to charity was key to the development of a moral society. Charity was not only common - their were sanctuaries dedicated to charity!

So use see - the ancient religion was exceptionally pluralistic. There is very very little difference between sophists like Diogenes and Jesus - who simply copied the Greek sophists. Jesus copied Greek sophists and most of his Jewish disciples had Greek names because anything Greek was in fashion at the time in Israel - thanks to rules like Antiochus Epiphanes. Greek sophists had no possessions - would speak of one universal God - would share all food / anything they had and would accept anyone into their circle - prostitutes, beggars - anyone. They usually had 12 disciples too who would travel with them preaching to crowds. 

The problem with the desert religions of the Chrismusjews is that they don't celebrate human nature the way the Olympian religion did. As desert religions get weaker in society - art flourished. Early Christians were like muslims today. The weaker the religion gets the better for society. However - I am a pagan - so I would say that! I can also tell you Stella that the majority of Greeks would agree with every word you said in your post. Around 20 -30% would probably agree with me.

[StellaRojas]

This transformation was an easy one, because these ancient religions were purely ceremonial in their nature and not doctrinal, so nothing was taken away from them.

I disagree strongly on this point. If you take for example the Ancient Greek's love of sport and contest. There has been no other record of any peoples who worshipped sport to the same extreme degree as the Ancient Greeks. Even the Greek calendar was calculated from the dates of Olympic Games across the Greek world. So why were Greeks so infatuated with sport? Simply - the games were a religious festival to Zeus. All the Olympic games across the Greek world were dedicated to Zeus. The champions were honoured and it was believed the Gods would look down beneficially among them. The religious festivals of all sports in Greece were born out of the religion itself. You see the Greeks were the total opposite to christians. Christians believe the flesh is sinful and the soul needs nourishment alone. The Ancient Greeks believed both the body and soul needed nourishment - hence their favourite saying - healthy body - healthy mind. They worshipped the gym because of its association with Heracles. They believed the better the body looked - the more favour they would receive from the Gods. Bravery and ingenuity were also worshipped. So the whole sporting movement and the greek's obsession with sport and physical brilliance is pagan based and is as far from Christianity as humanly possible. Also - the ancient Greek religion worshipped technological advancement - whereas Christianity is always worried you will offend the Jewish God by going beyond his own work.

Not to mention the importance of Christianity for building family values and ties, something not so present in the ancient culture.

Family values and ties were exceptionally important in the ancient world. They were so important that simply because Xenophon's son died fighting for Athens - he was forgiven and his exile annulled. That is because the father and the son and the daughter - all their honour was connected. What was even more beautiful is that the ancient would often adopt children that were not their own and bestow upon them everything a biological son would have. This enormity of generosity brings us onto another Christian piece of propaganda - that their religion invented charity. The Ancient Greeks believed giving to charity was key to the development of a moral society. Charity was not only common - their were sanctuaries dedicated to charity!

So use see - the ancient religion was exceptionally pluralistic. There is very very little difference between sophists like Diogenes and Jesus - who simply copied the Greek sophists. Jesus copied Greek sophists and most of his Jewish disciples had Greek names because anything Greek was in fashion at the time in Israel - thanks to rules like Antiochus Epiphanes. Greek sophists had no possessions - would speak of one universal God - would share all food / anything they had and would accept anyone into their circle - prostitutes, beggars - anyone. They usually had 12 disciples too who would travel with them preaching to crowds. 

The problem with the desert religions of the Chrismusjews is that they don't celebrate human nature the way the Olympain religion did. As they get weaker in society - art flourished. Early Christians were like muslims today. The weaker the religion gets the better for society. However - I am a pagan - so I would say that! I can also tell you Stella that the majority of Greeks would agree with every word you said in your post. Around 20 -30% would probably agree with me.

Well, Faliro, I thought that this was purely, so to say, academic discussion, but as it turns out, you say that you are a pagan, and I am a Christian, so I would not want to steer this in the wrong direction, because I do not like to impose my views on others. But, anyway:

Christians believe the flesh is sinful and the soul needs nourishment alone

This is in fact a ( common) caricature of Christianity and not the actual truth. There is a verse in the Bible saying " Body is the temple of the Holy Spirit". Meaning that it needs to be nourished, taken care of. What Christianity is against are violent sports where you can badly hurt or kill your opponent, against making material prize the main incentive for playing sports, or even against the very idea of playing a sport in order to win against someone. So Christianity would be more in line with amateur sports.

Anyway 





Ancient Olympic Games had religious origins, but they were mainly about glory, or even cash prize ( a hefty one from what I read) and slaves. Motivated more by agon and not Zeus, that is what I would say. Zeus was just a backdrop.

Ancient Greeks emulated their Gods. Cronus killed his father Uranus, Zeus killed Cronus, not to mention these cruel episodes from the Greek mythology, such as Medea killing her children in order to take revenge on Jason, or Tantalus serving his son as a meal to Gods ( in order to mock them), or Agamemnon sacrificing Iphigenia. Or how maternally inclined Hera was towards Haephaestus when she gave him his lame leg.

Cases of femicide were widespread and women were certainly not considered equal to man, daughters could not inherit anything. Christianity, of course, banned femicide and declared that we are all, men and women alike, created in the image of God.

I'm not denying that there are many parallels between the doctrine of Christianity and ancient philosophical teachings ( after all,Christianity had to be propagated, so it could not be entirely new and foreign), but the Sermon on the Mount is the core of the New Testament, and you will not find anything similar anywhere.
Christianity did not discourage art. After all, fra Angelico is one of the most renowned representatives of the renaissance and many popes commissioned the works of art. Also, Orthodox Christian icons and frescoes are breathtakingly beautiful as well as Byzantine or Gregorian chants.

[Faliro]

This is in fact a ( common) caricature of Christianity and not the actual truth. There is a verse in the Bible saying " Body is the temple of the Holy Spirit". Meaning that it needs to be nourished, taken care of.

There is that verse, but I am afraid there are far more that talk of sinful flesh and those are the ones their faithful respected hence how much flesh they use to cover.


Galatians 5:19-21
Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Ephesians 2:3
Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.

Isaiah 47:3
"Your nakedness will be uncovered, Your shame also will be exposed; I will take vengeance and will not spare a man."


Etc etc. Greeks on the hand believed the human naked was a thing of beauty - nothing to ashamed of like in the desert. The Greeks and Romans had what we call - the Cult of the Body.

What Christianity is against are violent sports where you can badly hurt or kill your opponent, against making material prize the main incentive for playing sports, or even against the very idea of playing a sport in order to win against someone. So Christianity would be more in line with amateur sports.

In general, Christians did not like Greek athletics. The cult of physical beauty and power did not interest them. Moreover, athletics and games were closely linked to pagan cult. One can discern some chronological evolutions and regional differences, though. In the first centuries AD, when Christians were a minority group, they criticized above all the pagan cult. Christians from the West, who had grown up with the Roman view on sports, were also opposed to athletics, but Christians in the East were not, as they were influenced by a society that valued this practice. In the course of the fourth century, the majority of the population became Christian and pagan cult declined. The whole society (both Christians and pagans) became gradually more prudish: training your body became a sign of vanity and athletic nudity became indecent.

The Greek vocabulary of the Roman period was full of words and images from sports, both in everyday speech and in literary language. The christians took over this vocabulary, but the old words received a new philosophical and religious meaning. The Greek word for training "askesis" was reinterpreted as christian "asceticism", the harsh way of life of the christians and especially of the monks. Like the athletes, they submitted themselves to a hard training regimen and a strict diet. Their diet, however, did not consist of eating lots of meat to develop their muscles, but of disciplining their bodies by continuous deprivation.

Ancient Olympic Games had religious origins, but they were mainly about glory, or even cash prize ( a hefty one from what I read) and slaves. Motivated more by agon and not Zeus, that is what I would say. Zeus was just a backdrop.

I have never heard of any cash prize at the ancient Olympics and I have read on it extensively - money as a prize was was banned. All the victors would get is a olive wreath  and in some cases a statue of them. Occasionally some Greeks from the outskirts of the Greek world would complain that a olive wreath crown was not enough for all the years of practice and hard work. The famous retort was:

Why, Zeus is poor, and I will clearly prove it to you. In the Olympic games, which he founded, and to which he convokes the whole of Greece every four years, why does he only crown the victorious athletes with wild olive? If he were rich he would give them gold.

Ancient Greeks emulated their Gods. Cronus killed his father Uranus, Zeus killed Cronus, not to mention these cruel episodes from the Greek mythology, such as Medea killing her children in order to take revenge on Jason, or Tantalus serving his son as a meal to Gods ( in order to mock them), or Agamemnon sacrificing Iphigenia. Or how maternally inclined Hera was towards Haephaestus when she gave him his lame leg.

Ancient Greeks did not emulate stories of inter family murder just as Christians did not the story of Cain and Abel. These stories were tragedies and constantly performed in tragic plays. Greeks however did try and emulate positive aspects of Gods - like deeds of humanity and generosity etc.

Cases of femicide were widespread and women were certainly not considered equal to man, daughters could not inherit anything. Christianity, of course, banned femicide and declared that we are all, men and women alike, created in the image of God.

Femicide was practised by various groups at various times - true. This was not pleasant and goes against our modern values. However femicide had nothing to do with the Gods. In China also - it has nothing to do with religion. The reasons were strictly economic and there was no God condoning femicide for economic reasons. Infanticide was in stories of the Gods but had to do with prophesies of your son for example over shadowing you - rather than a poor family in Athens killing their daughter for economic reasons for example. We must remember also that the bible contains verses of rape as does the koran and Torah. Also the women and inheritance is another mythology. In Athens it is true - women could not inherit legally. However in Sparta women could not only inherit - they owned around 40% of all the property in the kingdom! As Spartan civilisation blossomed - some of the richest citizens in the kingdom were women. They also received the same education as men. Remember..From the early Christian patristic age, the offices of teacher and sacramental minister were reserved for men throughout most of the church in the East and West. Tertullian, the 2nd-century Latin father, wrote that "It is not permitted to a woman to speak in church. Neither may she teach, baptize, offer, nor claim for herself any function proper to a man, least of all the sacerdotal office" ("On the Veiling of Virgins"). Origen (AD 185-254) stated that,

Even if it is granted to a woman to show the sign of prophecy, she is nevertheless not permitted to speak in an assembly. When Miriam the prophetess spoke, she was leading a choir of women ... For [as Paul declares] "I do not permit a woman to teach," and even less "to tell a man what to do."

Once again - as the religion evolved away from the desert it advanced. However Christianity is yet to meet the heights that the Ancient Greeks gave to Greek priestesses - who were at the top of the religion. In Greece there are still many little churches around the country - besides Mount Athos (that has a total ban on women even setting foot there) - that do not allow women to enter because they bleed. Similar rules can be found in the sister desert religions of Islam and Judaism.

I'm not denying that there are many parallels between the doctrine of Christianity and ancient philosophical teachings ( after all,Christianity had to be propagated, so it could not be entirely new and foreign), but the Sermon on the Mount is the core of the New Testament, and you will not find anything similar anywhere.

In the Sermon on the Mount there are many coponents that have been done to death before. The structure of heaven and hell - good deeds leading to one - bad to the other - was nothing new - nor the idea of mercy, nor the idea of false prophets - nor the idea of judging others - lest you want to be judged yourself.. You should read about the life Diogenes and the other Greek sophists. You will see parallels instantly.

Christianity did not discourage art. After all, fra Angelico is one of the most renowned representatives of the renaissance and many popes commissioned the works of art. Also, Orthodox Christian icons and frescoes are breathtakingly beautiful as well as Byzantine or Gregorian chants.

Christianity totally discouraged art. As I told you - the weaker Christianity got - the better - the closer it got to the rebirth - Renaissance - rebirth of ancient Greek and Roman art. Early Christians were like muslims today. They were afraid of The Old Testament's restrictions against the production of graven (an idol or fetish carved in wood or stone) images.10,000 of Greeks were murdered for even having pictures of the virgin Mary - by other Christians! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_Iconoclasm Imagine being murdered by another Christian for having an image of the Virgin and Christ! That is the desert religion for you! A Greek people so in love with the image - with art generally, suddenly being murdered because other Christians follow the word of the Jewish desert God too closely! As the religion weakened and corrupted - the art flourished better. However sculpture took over 1600 years to get back to where it was due to the sinful nature of the human body and other desert beliefs associated with the core principles of the Abrahamic desert religions.

For me Epicurus summed up the fundamental flaws with all desert religions in one beautifully structured argument:

God, he says, either wishes to take away evils, and is unable; or He is able, and is unwilling; or He is neither willing nor able, or He is both willing and able. If He is willing and is unable, He is feeble, which is not in accordance with the character of God; if He is able and unwilling, He is envious, which is equally at variance with God; if He is neither willing nor able, He is both envious and feeble, and therefore not God; if He is both willing and able, which alone is suitable to God, from what source then are evils? Or why does He not remove them?

[Festivus]

Well Anatolia was Hittite, then Greek from around 1200BC, then Greek but controlled by the Romans - then Byzantine - then finally Ottoman. The Ottomans were originally from China and travelled across Eurasia to get to Anatolia. I don't see the why any of that means Greeks should be force fed Turkish soaps all day long - in Turkish. 

No one deserves to be bombarded with soap operas, truth be told.

Turks are mishmash of Middle Eastern - a little Far Eastern (where they came from over 1400 years ago) - they also have plenty of Greek and Armenian DNA with traces of slav and other assortments. Greeks however are very homogeneous genetically and plot closest to Southern Italians. Many Apulians in turn score over 80% Greek for example.

Yeah makes sense. I could see Samaris being Italian very well.

For the record, when I used to have longer hair I was told a few times that I looked a bit like Giorgios Samaras. 

But yeah, I think lots of misinformation has spread about genetics lately. Lots of people online seem to believe modern Greeks have nothing or not much to do with ancient Greeks and that the Ottoman ruling gave lots of Greeks "turkish blood". Kinda like many people also believe people from Portugal and Spain are descendants of Arabs, even though genetic studies prove that the majority of the genes of people from both nations are European. The dominant genes in the Iberian Peninsula I believe still are those of the pre-roman times. The Portuguese are also a very homogeneous people, which makes sense considering we're in the corner of Europe and only have one neighbour... which is also genetically nearly identical to us, since we're both in the same peninsula. The genetic influx from Arabs into the peninsula is not that significant really. I've been to Tunisia and people there clearly looked quite different from Portuguese people in general. I mean, the Reconquista happened and the Moors were eventually expelled... clearly even after all those years, the Christians considered themselves different from the Moors/Muslims.

A lot of that stuff is nordicist propaganda anyway. As in the only possible explanation in their minds for certain European countries being poorer than others can only be due to "non-white genes" 

I went there when I was 3. My mother decided to tell everyone she met she was a Greek..

Literally everyone? How did that go?

I would say around half - a critical mass - of Greeks are either communists or leftists. They are more likely to apologise for Turks, compare Alexander the Great to Hitler or talk about how capitalism has destroyed their country than give two shits about how Xenophon survived his expedition into Persia for example.    The right wng Greeks are very proud of the ancients - they are all that is left of the Greek people in reality. It is also interesting to note that the Greek communists in the civil war wished to remove Greece as an independent entity and join Greece with soviet Russia. They recruited many slavs into their army for that very reason. Many of these communist Greeks have very ambiguous surnames which suggests they were originally slavs who were converted to orthodoxy by the Byzantines.

Wait they compare Alexander the Great to Hitler, really??

True - but put it like this. When people think of Western Civilisation - a lot of the time they wonder off into Mozart, Dickens and Jesus's teachings - Europe's Judaeo-Christian heritage/values. This is because we allowed the Abrahamic desert religions of the Chrismusjews to dominate the West..

I always saw the foundation stones of Western Civilisation as inspired by Pagan Ancient Greece. Getting smashed on wine - and worshipping the right to get smashed - even having a God of wine who was one of the 12 Olympians...attending festivals 24/7 (festivals of music/ dancing/ theatre/ etc)... going out to the movies..(Ancient Greek Theatre)... worshipping sport (Olympics, endless sporting competitions - every town had 100s of gyms) and worshipping beauty (ancient Greeks even had beauty contests..) and then at the end of it getting vote on what you think the direction of the country should be.. The Christians were - and still are horrified of ancient Greece and ancient Rome - however - the core soul of a European - for the most part - is still in 5th Century Athens. Work, pleasure - the worship of technology and as much intellectualism as you can handle. I think this trumps anything anyone else has given to the West.

Well, I think most Europeans value Ancient Greece and Rome when it comes to European/Western identity. Greece is basically viewed as the birthplace of Western civilization.

Globalism is a leftist principle. However - you can make it very simple for yourself. Anything to do with removing individual culture - thus creating identity politics - is of the left. Anything worshipping or encouraging the differences between cultures is associated with the right. The problem with Greece is there is no middle. There is the left and the right. There are no centrist parties. So everything is polarised.

That's kinda like how it is here. Most parties here are on the left side of the spectrum. Then there's soem right-winged ones. I suppose PS and PSD both qualify as centre-left and centre-right respectively.

Identity politics seem to be a big thing these days. Mostly due to USA. You have the alt right on one side and the SJWs on the other side. Sadly that seems to be spreading into the rest of the world as well.

Well it is globalisation as you said. What was sexy about Europe for me was the differences. You cross a border and there is a new language, a new way of doing things - difference beliefs, cuisine etc.  What is happening thanks to the EU (a massively backed organisation in the med btw) is that we are becoming more like the USA. Greece and Italy are simply states that have given up control of their courts, currency and future - voluntarily! Remember - It was Greeks who destroyed Delphi under command of the Emperor Theodosius. Every last foundation stone was uprooted. In the same way the Europeans have sold their souls to the EU.  I kind of like that in a way - because the minute a European dares to blame someone else for whatever their problems may be - you can instantly remind them - they voluntarily joined the EU - an organisation based in Northern Europe with a deeply globalist agenda.

It may help you to read Marx's Communist Manifesto and perhaps some Adorno on the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culture_industry. Adorno blames the culture industry on capitalism - of course. However - the roots of indoctrinating people to be identical are heavily found in the left - not the right as I explained above.

Yes, the EU really seems to be pushing more for federalism. I hope that never happens. EU is basically the United States of Europe, or tries to be. On paper, the EU is a great idea and it came after WW2. Obviously Europeans were afraid yet another world war would break out in their continent and decided to take some steps for some sort of political and economic union in order to prevent that from happening again. Plus, the USSR was around, so having Western Europe united under one banner seemed important. Not to mention the creation of NATO(Portugal is a founding member of it, btw). And speaking of NATO, it kinda lost its purpose after the end of the Cold War. Since then it was basically used in the Yugoslav wars in the 90s, I think.

You also raise a good point. For example, Portugal's currency before the Euro was the Escudo. Granted conversion was easy for us since 1 euro equals to basically 200 escudos. 5 euros equals to 1000 escudos, etc. It's easy math. I can only imagine how much the italians suffered tho  . Anyway, the Euro sure made travelling easier, not just because you no longer need to exchange money when you go to many European countries any more, but it also made it more possible for people who lived in countries with weaker currencies to travel. On the other hand... everything got more expensive here with the Euro. Btw, did you know the Escudo was once a very strong currency? Back in the 60s-70s it was.

I've read Marx's Communist Manifesto many years ago, actually. But naturally I don't remember every thing about it, and plus I was only 18 or so when I read it.

[Faliro]

Super post ^^

No one deserves to be bombarded with soap operas, truth be told.

I don't care either way. Greece used to get bombarded with South American soaps with beautiful women talking about their affairs. However these days - you turn on the TV in Greece and it is wall to wall Turkish soaps - in Turkish - and themes are arranged Sunni marriages and stuff like that. Pretty sickening.

Yeah makes sense. I could see Samaris being Italian very well.

For the record, when I used to have longer hair I was told a few times that I looked a bit like Giorgios Samaras. 

But yeah, I think lots of misinformation has spread about genetics lately. Lots of people online seem to believe modern Greeks have nothing or not much to do with ancient Greeks and that the Ottoman ruling gave lots of Greeks "turkish blood". Kinda like many people also believe people from Portugal and Spain are descendants of Arabs, even though genetic studies prove that the majority of the genes of people from both nations are European. The dominant genes in the Iberian Peninsula I believe still are those of the pre-roman times. The Portuguese are also a very homogeneous people, which makes sense considering we're in the corner of Europe and only have one neighbour... which is also genetically nearly identical to us, since we're both in the same peninsula. The genetic influx from Arabs into the peninsula is not that significant really. I've been to Tunisia and people there clearly looked quite different from Portuguese people in general. I mean, the Reconquista happened and the Moors were eventually expelled... clearly even after all those years, the Christians considered themselves different from the Moors/Muslims.

A lot of that stuff is nordicist propaganda anyway. As in the only possible explanation in their minds for certain European countries being poorer than others can only be due to "non-white genes" 

Excellent points. You are correct. For years the English and others described Greeks as mixed with every 'Levantine' and no longer connected to the ancients. Then an amazing thing happened. DNA testing. Greeks were expected to plot in Lebanon - North Africa - Yugoslavia etc.. However what they found was the opposite. Greeks plot no where near the East. Not the Near East or Far East. This instantly annoyed many leftists who had be propagating the idea Greeks are mishmash.. Even worse - they found Greeks plotted directly in Greece - they plotted directly within Greece. All the ancient bones Greeks have dug up from the Mycenaeans, Minoans, Ancient Classical Greeks etc - Greeks were shown to be direct descendants. The peoples hadn't moved. There was no ancient Greek extinction event. Greeks have not moved over 3000 years. There was a little bit of slav in the mix - around 0% to 17% depending on region, but little of nothing else. More interestingly - Southern italians - Specifically in Apulia and Sicily plotted as high as 80% Greek - meaning these southern Italians in turn had simply been marrying within their villages since those villages where founded by Greek colonists.  Turks on the other hand plotted Middle East, East Asian, Levant, Greek, Armenian etc etc... complete cocktails.

The same happened in Spain. The left for years had built a culture industry of the true geniuses of Spain - the Moors ( ) being the proto-genus of most Spaniards - both culturally and genetically. Whenever a learned Spaniard would try to explain most these Arab centres in Spain were originally Roman and in some cases before that Greek - they were dismissed as being nationalistic and naive. The DNA results came in - sure enough - Spanish scored very very little North African. The myth was destroyed - but like in Greece - the left immediately started saying things like - 'well these tests are not 100% accurate.' What was interesting about the Spanish results for me however is just how much Goth there is in Spain. It is an open secret 90% of Spanish surnames are Vandal in origin - however - many many Spanish are fair and blue eyes because of the Goth invasions and before that the Celts. The proto-Spanish - (pre Roman) were most likely a fairly dark people - they were significantly lightened by invasions from those East of Spain.

Literally everyone? How did that go?

My dad said they were very polite and treated her well. My mum said - she could see in their eyes they were insecure and untrusting of her.

[Festivus]

Excellent points. You are correct. For years the English and others described Greeks as mixed with every 'Levantine' and no longer connected to the ancients. Then an amazing thing happened. DNA testing. Greeks were expected to plot in Lebanon - North Africa - Yugoslavia etc.. However what they found was the opposite. Greeks plot no where near the East. Not the Near East or Far East. This instantly annoyed many leftists who had be propagating the idea Greeks are mishmash.. Even worse - they found Greeks plotted directly in Greece - they plotted directly within Greece. All the ancient bones Greeks have dug up from the Mycenaeans, Minoans, Ancient Classical Greeks etc - Greeks were shown to be direct descendants. The peoples hadn't moved. There was no ancient Greek extinction event. Greeks have not moved over 3000 years. There was a little bit of slav in the mix - around 0% to 17% depending on region, but little of nothing else. More interestingly - Southern italians - Specifically in Apulia and Sicily plotted as high as 80% Greek - meaning these southern Italians in turn had simply been marrying within their villages since those villages where founded by Greek colonists.  Turks on the other hand plotted Middle East, East Asian, Levant, Greek, Armenian etc etc... complete cocktails.

The same happened in Spain. The left for years had built a culture industry of the true geniuses of Spain - the Moors ( ) being the proto-genus of most Spaniards - both culturally and genetically. Whenever a learned Spaniard would try to explain most these Arab centres in Spain were originally Roman and in some cases before that Greek - they were dismissed as being nationalistic and naive. The DNA results came in - sure enough - Spanish scored very very little North African. The myth was destroyed - but like in Greece - the left immediately started saying things like - 'well these tests are not 100% accurate.' What was interesting about the Spanish results for me however is just how much Goth there is in Spain. It is an open secret 90% of Spanish surnames are Vandal in origin - however - many many Spanish are fair and blue eyes because of the Goth invasions and before that the Celts. The proto-Spanish - (pre Roman) were most likely a fairly dark people - they were significantly lightened by invasions from those East of Spain.

Well people tend to stick to their own kind usually. Also, I believe the Moors who invaded the peninsula were actually a minority elite. Hard for a minority to breed with most of the population, I'd say.

I don't think the Portuguese care that much about genetics. I've naturally learned about the Moors in school, but I don't remember ever hearing about genetics or anything. We just simply studied the influence they had in our architecture and language, etc.

Ah Sicily. That's another place that a lot of lies are told about.  Many Americans, including those of Sicilian background, believe that Sicilians are "part black".  Americans in general are a very race-conscious society, and keep in mind that at certain point Irish, Germans and Italians were not considered "white" in their eyes. Only people of Anglo Saxon Protestant origin were. Figures...

Btw, one also has to keep in mind that Northern Africa is very diverse. They're not originally Arabic. True Arabs are the ones from the Gulf. Then they invaded Northern Africa and arabised the locals(Amazighers, etc.).

See, that's the thing. For some reason, some people believe that, before the Moorish invasion people in the Iberian peninsula were all super fair skinned and had light hair and eyes and then became dark haired and got tans  . Lol we've never been "nordic". Our dark haired and olive skinned folk have always been here. That's what you get when you live in one of the hottest regions of Europe in the Summer and also the closest one to the equator. Not to mention the whole darkness of Portuguese and Spaniards and southern Europeans in general is a bit overstated. People come here in the Summer and see a ton of "dark" people... well no shit, they've been getting fried under the sun. On average we're not as ghastly pale as many Europeans up north, but it's not like we're Indians compared to them  . That being said, a lot of us are fair skinned and some of us also have light hair and/or eyes. That being said, the vats majority of us(about 80+ or so percent of the population probably) have brown/black hair and brown eyes.

[Faliro]

Excellent points. You are correct. For years the English and others described Greeks as mixed with every 'Levantine' and no longer connected to the ancients. Then an amazing thing happened. DNA testing. Greeks were expected to plot in Lebanon - North Africa - Yugoslavia etc.. However what they found was the opposite. Greeks plot no where near the East. Not the Near East or Far East. This instantly annoyed many leftists who had be propagating the idea Greeks are mishmash.. Even worse - they found Greeks plotted directly in Greece - they plotted directly within Greece. All the ancient bones Greeks have dug up from the Mycenaeans, Minoans, Ancient Classical Greeks etc - Greeks were shown to be direct descendants. The peoples hadn't moved. There was no ancient Greek extinction event. Greeks have not moved over 3000 years. There was a little bit of slav in the mix - around 0% to 17% depending on region, but little of nothing else. More interestingly - Southern italians - Specifically in Apulia and Sicily plotted as high as 80% Greek - meaning these southern Italians in turn had simply been marrying within their villages since those villages where founded by Greek colonists.  Turks on the other hand plotted Middle East, East Asian, Levant, Greek, Armenian etc etc... complete cocktails.

The same happened in Spain. The left for years had built a culture industry of the true geniuses of Spain - the Moors ( ) being the proto-genus of most Spaniards - both culturally and genetically. Whenever a learned Spaniard would try to explain most these Arab centres in Spain were originally Roman and in some cases before that Greek - they were dismissed as being nationalistic and naive. The DNA results came in - sure enough - Spanish scored very very little North African. The myth was destroyed - but like in Greece - the left immediately started saying things like - 'well these tests are not 100% accurate.' What was interesting about the Spanish results for me however is just how much Goth there is in Spain. It is an open secret 90% of Spanish surnames are Vandal in origin - however - many many Spanish are fair and blue eyes because of the Goth invasions and before that the Celts. The proto-Spanish - (pre Roman) were most likely a fairly dark people - they were significantly lightened by invasions from those East of Spain.

Well people tend to stick to their own kind usually. Also, I believe the Moors who invaded the peninsula were actually a minority elite. Hard for a minority to breed with most of the population, I'd say.

I don't think the Portuguese care that much about genetics. I've naturally learned about the Moors in school, but I don't remember ever hearing about genetics or anything. We just simply studied the influence they had in our architecture and language, etc.

Ah Sicily. That's another place that a lot of lies are told about.  Many Americans, including those of Sicilian background, believe that Sicilians are "part black".  Americans in general are a very race-conscious society, and keep in mind that at certain point Irish, Germans and Italians were not considered "white" in their eyes. Only people of Anglo Saxon Protestant origin were. Figures...

Btw, one also has to keep in mind that Northern Africa is very diverse. They're not originally Arabic. True Arabs are the ones from the Gulf. Then they invaded Northern Africa and arabised the locals(Amazighers, etc.).

See, that's the thing. For some reason, some people believe that, before the Moorish invasion people in the Iberian peninsula were all super fair skinned and had light hair and eyes and then became dark haired and got tans  . Lol we've never been "nordic". Our dark haired and olive skinned folk have always been here. That's what you get when you live in one of the hottest regions of Europe in the Summer and also the closest one to the equator. Not to mention the whole darkness of Portuguese and Spaniards and southern Europeans in general is a bit overstated. People come here in the Summer and see a ton of "dark" people... well no shit, they've been getting fried under the sun. On average we're not as ghastly pale as many Europeans up north, but it's not like we're Indians compared to them  . That being said, a lot of us are fair skinned and some of us also have light hair and/or eyes. That being said, the vats majority of us(about 80+ or so percent of the population probably) have brown/black hair and brown eyes.

Yea, some pretty women too from Iberia imo.  I like the med featured ones more than the ones who have Xavi Alsono's colouring for example.

[Faliro]

Updated:


1   Greece   GK   Sokratis Dioudis  Meh..
2   Sweden   DF   Mattias Johansson  Rubbish
3   Argentina   DF   Emanuel Insúa  Meh..
4   Greece   DF   Giorgos Koutroubis Garbage
5   Portugal   DF   Nuno Reis Average
6   Greece   MF   Christos Donis (5th-captain) Meh
7   Israel   MF   Omri Altman Garbage
8   Sweden   FW   Guillermo Molins (4th-captain) Inconsistent - mostly garbage.
9   Argentina   FW   Andrés Chávez Garbage
10   France   MF   Anthony Mounier Garbage.
11   Ecuador   FW   Bryan Cabezas (on loan from Atalanta) Good.
14   Sweden   MF   Oscar Hiljemark (on loan from Genoa) Meh..
15   Greece   DF   Tasos Avlonitis Average..
17   Finland   MF   Robin Lod Average..
18   Brazil   FW   Luciano Garbage.
19   Argentina   MF   Lucas Villafáñez (3rd-captain) Average
21   Greece   MF   Dimitris Kourbelis (captain) Good player in right environment.
22   Greece   MF   Fanis Tzandaris Jury out.
23   Sweden   DF   Niklas Hult Garbage - terrible defender.
26   Greece   DF   Dimitrios Kolovetsios - Average.
27   Greece   GK   Konstantinos Kotsaris No idea.
29   Mali   MF   Yacouba Sylla (on loan from Rennais) No idea.
31   Brazil   DF   Rodrigo Moledo (vice-captain) Average.
34   Greece   MF   Paschalis Staikos No idea.
39   Greece   MF   Anastasios Chatzigiovannis No idea.
41   Greece   DF   Stefanos Evangelou No idea.
49   Greece   FW   Sotiris-Pantelis Pispas No idea.
78   Mali   DF   Ousmane Coulibaly Meh.. always injured too.
99   Germany   GK   Odisseas Vlachodimos Already said.

Kourbelis will be the next to go. Vilafanez their best player just agreed to go the Turkey. Also Alafouzos now has PAO fans outside his house each night shouting abuse. He said yesterday - he will further reduce the budget from €5.7 million to €4 million - this means  even youth players will have to be sold! All attempts to sell PAO failed. No one was interested and Alafouzos lied about the debt. The club is not even worth the amount of debt it is in.