Hellas futebol

[Jotenko]

Well I am talking about religion because you are talking about meaning of life without religion or belief in a 'plan.'

We all lived our lives knowing the difference between right and wrong before the emergence of the desert religions.

If you don't believe in religions or the concept of creation or superior knowledge, then how do you define what's right or wrong?

[Faliro]

The same way the ancients did, logic.

The saying, 'do not do to others what you would not want done to yourself' is older than Christianity. The law courts of Ancient Rome and Ancient Athens are not that different to the ones we have today. There was theatre, music, wine, food, restaurants, schools, lawyers, gyms, banks, councils, sports, olympic games, wars, charities, religious beliefs, etc all before Christianity and the other desert religions.. The desert religions did not shape our society, the ancient world did.

[Jotenko]

The same way the ancients did, logic.

The saying, 'do not do to others what you would not want done to yourself' is older than Christianity. The law courts of Ancient Rome and Ancient Athens are not that different to the ones we have today. There was theatre, music, wine, food, restaurants, schools, lawyers, gyms, banks, councils, sports, olympic games, wars, charities, religious beliefs, etc all before Christianity and the other desert religions.. The desert religions did not shape our society, the ancient world did.

Fair enough.

[Jotenko]

Thanks.

[Jotenko]

I have to take a shit now.

[Jotenko]

^ You like shit?

[Faliro]

No, just don't like the idea of keeping one in..

[Jotenko]

No, just don't like the idea of keeping one in..

I call my poop pieces 'submarines'

[Godescalco]

The saying, 'do not do to others what you would not want done to yourself' is older than Christianity.

And Christianity does not claim otherwise, since it believes that all moral absolutes come from God.

That they have been more or less present in civilisations prior to Christendom, or Israel, is of no surprise. It is, in fact, expectable.

[Faliro]

Well Christianity does not speak with one voice. Here in the UK we have had a big debate recently with our Primeminister suddenly stating we are a 'Christian country' and should be more 'evangelical' about it..that he has strong christian beliefs etc.. He and others stated the 'values' we have in the UK are Christian and institutions like marriage are Christian heritage.

So to someone like myself who studied classics, it seems many Christians, in the UK and US believe that their values, morals and institutions are intrinsically Christian, when history teaches us that most our values, morals and laws were present in our pre-christian culture of Ancient Italy and Ancient Greece.

The desert religions are very extreme in general.

[Godescalco]

I'm not sure what your rant involving Cameron and the UK was about. That Europe as a whole, despite the large inroads made by secularism and liberalism in the 19th and 20th centuries, is still rooted at its core in common Christian values and concepts is undeniable. That's the driving force behind the matrix of what have come to call western civilisation, not the classics, no matter how important they have been (and they have). To highlight the Greco-Roman heritage of Europe at the expense of Christendom is the typical modern reactionary thought present, for instance, in the early drafts of the EU constitution.

In any case, that's immaterial to the point I was making. I pointed out that the presence of moral codes, even moral codes that contain truth in them that we still share, in civilisations that were not touched by Christianity, or that are antecedent to it and to the Jewish nation, is not an argument against the Christian religion but for it, since Christianity believes in one God who alone is the creator and fountain of all truth.

[Faliro]

I'm not sure what your rant involving Cameron and the UK was about.

Well I did not see it as a rant and all the others who attacked him, I did not see as ranting either..

That Europe as a whole, despite the large inroads made by secularism and liberalism in the 19th and 20th centuries, is still rooted at its core in common Christian values and concepts is undeniable.

So it must be easy then for you to tell me what 'Core Christian Values' our society adheres to that were not borrowed/stolen from the ancient, pre-christian world. Because logic dictates, if they are the same values, calling them 'core christian' is a bit silly. Our society is based on education, sports, charity, entertainment, city councils, technology, money, family, marriage, the sanctity of children, moral codes against stealing and violence, law and order etc. These are not Christian inventions and they make up the MAJORITY of our society. Christianity - like other desert religions damaged many of the systems however, the ancient systems now rule again. Islam is simply a sister of Christianity going through its 'crusader' period.

That's the driving force behind the matrix of what have come to call western civilisation, not the classics, no matter how important they have been (and they have).

Western Civilsation is the descendant of Ancient Greece and Ancient Rome. Saying our civilsation is Christian is like someone buying a Picasso painting and claiming credit for painting it himself because he has simply owned the painting for 40 years...

To highlight the Greco-Roman heritage of Europe at the expense of Christendom is the typical modern reactionary thought present, for instance, in the early drafts of the EU constitution.

Actually - on this planet, for the last 2000 years, most intellectuals, when talking about western civilsation talk about Greece and Rome being the ancestor, not the desert religions.

In any case, that's immaterial to the point I was making. I pointed out that the presence of moral codes, even moral codes that contain truth in them that we still share, in civilisations that were not touched by Christianity, or that are antecedent to it and to the Jewish nation, is not an argument against the Christian religion but for it, since Christianity believes in one God who alone is the creator and fountain of all truth.

Not only Christians believe that, most the desert religions do. The Bible is a collection of stories, many borrowed from other tribes and civilizations. To base your life on corrupted texts and attempt to pretend our world is not a descendant of the Ancient Greek and Ancient Roman is bizarre.

When the people of the Roman/Byzantium Empire were told that they had to worship a desert God, most resisted, others didn't care. All the old places of pagan worship were simply destroyed and churches put in their place - no matter how remote. The Olympic games was banned as a pagan festival. The body was covered up as it was sinful, public baths were seen as places of sin. The world became a very silly place - just as you would expect when a violent desert religion was allowed to govern over a world were Mathematics and logic were considered divine.  Apollo the handsome son of God (zeus) who could heal by touch became Jesus to many - the chaste virgin - Athena - became Mary. The saints became many lesser Gods. Then the Romans started editing heavily the New Testament - throwing away histories that did not adhere to the type of Christianity they were trying to create. The new desert God needed European grooming and he got that. Wars were started on how best to worship him, millions were massacred since the foundation of the desert religion in the West. The West was not a bed of roses before Christianity, but this desert religion did little to nothing to improve the world, just brought much blood and the burning of many many books - which set our civilization back centuries. 

As for 19th Century liberalism, I think you need to read a book called Father and Son by Edmund Goose. It was composed in the 19th Century and describes why Christianity began to die in the UK and it was nothing to do with liberalism, it was simply logic and education was starting to disprove large amounts of the desert Book, AKA Bible and many religious scientists and learned citizens simply gave up or had crisis with Christianity.

As for Cameron claiming we are a Christian Nation, the former Archbishop of the whole country stated last week we are a 'post christian' country and I am afraid the majority of the UK agrees..

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-27177265

[Godescalco]

Your post speaks for itself, Faliro. Just too much strawmen.

I used to be like that in my teens and early twenties, but I've grown past it. No offence, friend, but this interaction isn't likely to get us anywhere.

[Jotenko]

Faliro, do you like Greece being a Republic? Would you rather be a Kingdom, taking in account also that you live in the Uk?

Enviado do meu C2005 através de Tapatalk

[Faliro]

I don't believe in Monarchy so I am happy Greece does not have one. Especially as the monarchy had 0 Greek blood. They were German-Danish who managed to rule Greece for over 150 years.

However there was one king that Greece owes a lot to and after his death, the country fell apart. It was George I of Greece (1845-1913). He managed to take back huge amounts of Greece from the ottoman Empire. You can see the territorial gains under his rule were huge. He was assassinated by a Greek anarchist days after he had gained Macedonia for the Kingdom of Greece.