Hellas futebol

[Festivus]

History lesson? All you need is one image:

[Faliro]

One of my favorites...

For me the Byzantine Empire was not something I find that awe inspiring.

I prefer the ancients more..

[H]

Thank you for that superb explanation Faliro. Always interesting to have the thoughts on those matters, from a common man, not a politician or a scholar.

Just one last question: Do you think the Future holds peace between the two countries, even without "territorial reorganizations"? Or do you think that sometime in the Future, warfare might fall within the relations, even if not in numbers such as "70 million" (e. g. Golden Dawn coming into power and start doing some violent purges or Turkey trying to take the rest of Cyprus)?

[Faliro]

Well as you probably figured out H, I am a cynic.

Sunni Islam is one of the strongest denominations of the Islamic religion. If someone blows themselves up, 99.99% of the time they are a Sunni and not a Shia. Many Turks, when they meet western strangers, put on a show of;  'we are all the same - we are just the same as Europeans.. coffee, disco..' I am afraid that is absolute rubbish. The Turks are set with the whole Sunni Islam thing and when that call to prayer rings out at dawn, people respect it and marvel at the idea that Allah is a merciful creator.

When the Romans were feeding Christians to the lions as a spectacle, none of them believed for a second that one day Rome would be worshiping the same desert God. Islam and Europe will reach a point of no return in a similar fashion. The scale of muslim reproduction in Europe is unprecedented. They already dominate many city councils and have the majority in many region's demographics. When this point of no return is reached, Europe will either have to decide to embrace Islam or fight it. Either way, it will be a truly apocalyptic time to be alive in Europe.

Christianity on its own was not enough to convince the European pagans to convert. Smashing their temples and destroying religious and pagan cultural precincts was how Christianity was able to dominate.

I truly don't ever see a time where Greece and Turkey will be friends. There are many far leftists who search for things in common with the two cultures (the need to take a shit, coffee, both Greeks and Turks usually have a set of eyes and two legs etc..) but you could find more in common with a Lion and a Gazelle than with a Greek and a Turk. Turks are hugely proud of the Ottoman Empire and very Islamic people and any Greek who believes their life would improve living under some type of Turkish partnership has clearly received some sort of brain damage. 100,000's of Greeks died to not have Greece exist as a slave to a muslim Empire. According to most polls, Greeks are perhaps the most distrustful of Muslims in Europe.

I don't believe greeks are particularly nice people, however, even they thank God each day they don't have to live near or under Turks. Those 400 years of virtual slavery will not be forgotten and should not be forgotten. Luckily Turkey reminds Greece each day that nothing has changed. They violate Greek air and sea borders weekly with war ships and military bombers. Talk monthly (their PM and foreign minister) about how a reintroduction of a new type Ottoman Empire would help the Balkans, etc...About how certain big Greek islands like Rhodes might not actually belong to Greece! They have it written in their constitution, that if Greece claims a 10 miles sea border (allowed by international law and which Turkey itself has in place on its southern and norther shores) - Turkey will officially go to war with Greece. Even if Greece extends its sea borders to 10 miles on its western facing shores - 100s of miles away from Turkey! That keeps Greeks aware of who their neighbors really are.. Italy and the rest of the world simply look on with popcorn in hand at the tragic show. Greece is simply too weak to take Turkey on and stop the bullying. Greece does not have one international ally.

[H]

Thanks Faliro. This is the kind of conversation I for once would like to have with you, while drinking a few beers and then perhaps watch a game between Benfica and Olympiakos.

Still about the subject, in any case of aggression, I'm pretty sure you would have the support of the Armenian Armed Forces as well, which should give you a good another million men to deal with the problem. Unless Azerbaijan puts their nose in it as well...

But do you get the feeling that not even your Balkanic neighbours, once upon a time united against the Ottoman Empire, would give you a hand? I know they have their own inner struggles (Ex-Jugoslavia issues, with Serbia, Croatia, Slovenia, Bosnia, Kosovo, etc.) but don't you feel any sort of sympathy from them on this matter? Not even from your Orthodox brothers from Serbia?

PS: A person starts thinking if Europe is that much of a safe place, when discussing these problems. At least on the East, it seems like a boiling pot that is about to explode any day. And this is without even mentioning Ukraine vs Russia, Georgia vs Russia, Chechnya, Abkhazia, Ossetia, etc.

[pcssousa]

I'm pretty sure if it would happen, the entire EU would support Greece.
Not going to happen anyway...

And I don't want to face Olympiakos in a near future. That's for sure.

[Faliro]

I'm pretty sure if it would happen, the entire EU would support Greece.
Not going to happen anyway...

And I don't want to face Olympiakos in a near future. That's for sure.

Remember that game with all the rain? What a strange day that was..  I would love to see a rematch. Simply because above anything, it's great to have a club like Benfica visit Athens and great to see how Olympiacos deal with Benfica in Lisboa.

[Faliro]

Thanks Faliro. This is the kind of conversation I for once would like to have with you, while drinking a few beers and then perhaps watch a game between Benfica and Olympiakos.

Still about the subject, in any case of aggression, I'm pretty sure you would have the support of the Armenian Armed Forces as well, which should give you a good another million men to deal with the problem. Unless Azerbaijan puts their nose in it as well...

But do you get the feeling that not even your Balkanic neighbours, once upon a time united against the Ottoman Empire, would give you a hand? I know they have their own inner struggles (Ex-Jugoslavia issues, with Serbia, Croatia, Slovenia, Bosnia, Kosovo, etc.) but don't you feel any sort of sympathy from them on this matter? Not even from your Orthodox brothers from Serbia?

PS: A person starts thinking if Europe is that much of a safe place, when discussing these problems. At least on the East, it seems like a boiling pot that is about to explode any day. And this is without even mentioning Ukraine vs Russia, Georgia vs Russia, Chechnya, Abkhazia, Ossetia, etc.

Next time you in London, give me a call. 

Now concerning the interesting point of Orthodox brotherhood. The first point to come to terms with was that the ''Russians'' armed Ataturk in the 1920s against Greece believing incorrectly Ataturk was a socialist...    When the Greeks were fighting the Turks in Anatolia, they were alone. The Armenians where just watching. When the Armenians were being massacred by the Turks, the Greeks were keeping a low profile. When Turkey invaded Cyprus - Europe watched. Greece sent a handful of troops who engaged the Turkish troops in the battle for the island. Both these counties were/are NATO allies... counted for nothing. The Balkans wars? 1st Balkan war? Super! Greece, Serbia, Armenians, Bulgaria, Montenegro vs the Ottoman Empire. The 2nd Balkan war? Serbia, Greece, Ottoman Empire, Romania, Montenegro vs Bulgaria! 

I truly believe Armenia would do absolutely nothing if Turkey engaged Greece in warfare - Bulgaria and Macedonia would watch the invasion on TV..

I also believe Serbia, and the EU would do nothing ((EU would put sanctions on Turkey and threaten to suspend Turkey's entry to the EU and tell Turkey to withdraw or else.. words. The EU has no agreements to protect Greece against a muslim invasion that I am aware of, which is unprecedented and mind-blowing in itself)). In fact concerning Serbia, I can imagine some ultra nationalists unofficially coming over to Greece to help, but only a handful. NATO would also do zero. If Greece had any confidence in any of the countries helping, they would slash their defense budget. Turkey also knows no one would help Greece, hence the provocations and constant talk of war and violations.

The only country that I believe might do something would be Russia. Putin is the most pro Greek Russian leader in the last 100 years. He visits Greece a lot, prays regularly at mount Athos.. He is someone who would be strong enough to believe Russia has some type of duty to defend Greece.

[Faliro]

On another note, today is Greek independence today. Marching in the wet conditions.

[Godescalco]

In the worst case scenario (NATO and the EU standing by idly), Putin's Russia would never let Turkey invade Greece.

That is certain.

[Festivus]

It's no wonder Russia feels hostilized with NATO being kept around after the Cold War was over. I don't like or want anything to do with the Russian government but I don't like my country being a dog of the Americans either. Joining them in the Iraq war was retarded. Not only we gave them Lajes in Azores but we also joined them in that crappy war? I don't see what we get in return. We're not under threat by any country so we don't need any protection from them. I'm afraid we're never leaving NATO since we're a founding member bah.

Sucks being a small and economically weak country. Not everyone can be Switzerland, I guess.

[Faliro]

Russia or the Soviet Union has made made catastrophic decisions resulting in the deaths of millions. However they were spot when they told America and the UK to keep out of Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya and Syria. Greece is member of NATO but keeps out of all these conflicts since Korea.

However, by refusing to send troops, America has often punished Greece. the purist recent example is when Greece refused to send troops to Iraq. Macedonia sent 100 troops and America therefore backed Macedonia in the naming dispute With Greece, recognizing the name 'Macedonia' within 1 month of Macedonia promising to send troops to Iraq.

NATO is simply a con. No NATO country has to defend any other. The focus is simply'Russia.'

The same goes for the EU.

[Festivus]

Russia or the Soviet Union has made made catastrophic decisions resulting in the deaths of millions. However they were spot when they told America and the UK to keep out of Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya and Syria. Greece is member of NATO but keeps out of all these conflicts since Korea.

However, by refusing to send troops, America has often punished Greece. the purist recent example is when Greece refused to send troops to Iraq. Macedonia sent 100 troops and America therefore backed Macedonia in the naming dispute With Greece, recognizing the name 'Macedonia' within 1 month of Macedonia promising to send troops to Iraq.

NATO is simply a con. No NATO country has to defend any other. The focus is simply'Russia.'

The same goes for the EU.

Americans simply wanted oil and used Iraq as a scapegoat for 9/11. The Iraqi war only made islamic terrorism worse. Saddam wasn't a nice guy by any means but he wasn't a fanatical jihadist like the Saudis(great friends with the Americans) are.

Russia are FAR form being saints, as I've said, but I refuse to view the Americans as the good guys. It's kinda funny and hypocritical how everyone goes apeshit when Russia decides to take over Crimea but no one cares when they USA goes into an undeveloped country and decides to stir shit up. Not to mention American culture is far more of a threat to most European countries than the Russian one is. hell, just look at football nowadays. It's getting more and more Americanized.

[Godescalco]

NATO is simply a con. No NATO country has to defend any other. The focus is simply'Russia.'

Not exactly true.

Since NATO is in fact a military alliance, each member state agrees to mutual defense in response to an attack by any external party. At least theoretically that's how it is.

[Faliro]

If one NATO member starts a conflict with another, the alliance does nothing. Greece was almost pushed into war with Turkey over a rock in the Aegean in the 90s. Shots were fired, people died. NATO did nothing.

NATOs existence is because of the threat of Russia...