Hellas futebol

[Cloughie]

A guy name Angelos Cha... is shit! 

What is ridiculous is that Greeks allow there names to be spelt in English with a 'ch' when it should either be a 'x' or 'h.'

Plenty of examples.

Jose Cholebas in Greek? Xolebas (Χολέβας). The 'X' has a 'h' sound - so his name should be pronounced 'Holebas.'

Charisteas. (goodness knows how the Portuguese commentary pronounced his name in Euro2004..) In Greek again - his name is Xaristeas (Χαριστέας) - pronounced 'Haristeas.'

So all these stupid translations they submit to UEFA sound nothing like their names. 'Holebas' spelt 'Cholebas' - sounds ridiculous because Greeks don't seem to understand 'ch' in English gives a completely different sound.

With Angelos Chanti (Xanti in Greek - Χαντί) - it is the same shit - but even more bizarre. His name being jordanian was probably Hadji i am guessing, or maybe Hadi. Greeks do another stupid thing. they have two 'd's. Delta -  Δ - a soft 'd' pronounced 'thelta' and a diphthong n+t = nt = a strong 'd' sound for a name like Davide. Now again - instead of realising that 'd' in latin is already string - they translate the diphthong directly into english.. So for example - the player Petros Mantalos should be Petros Madalos.

So poor old Chanti should actually read in English 'Xadi' or 'Hadi.' I have explained this to Greeks many times and tried to change this ridiculous thing and while they all agreed something should be done - no one - even in academic circles could be bothered.

Holebas is pronounced correctly in Portugal.
The other guy ( ) no.

How did you guys say his name? Ch -arist -eas?

Sometimes "cha", sometimes "Ca" which is something like "Ka".

[Faliro]

A guy name Angelos Cha... is shit! 

What is ridiculous is that Greeks allow there names to be spelt in English with a 'ch' when it should either be a 'x' or 'h.'

Plenty of examples.

Jose Cholebas in Greek? Xolebas (Χολέβας). The 'X' has a 'h' sound - so his name should be pronounced 'Holebas.'

Charisteas. (goodness knows how the Portuguese commentary pronounced his name in Euro2004..) In Greek again - his name is Xaristeas (Χαριστέας) - pronounced 'Haristeas.'

So all these stupid translations they submit to UEFA sound nothing like their names. 'Holebas' spelt 'Cholebas' - sounds ridiculous because Greeks don't seem to understand 'ch' in English gives a completely different sound.

With Angelos Chanti (Xanti in Greek - Χαντί) - it is the same shit - but even more bizarre. His name being jordanian was probably Hadji i am guessing, or maybe Hadi. Greeks do another stupid thing. they have two 'd's. Delta -  Δ - a soft 'd' pronounced 'thelta' and a diphthong n+t = nt = a strong 'd' sound for a name like Davide. Now again - instead of realising that 'd' in latin is already string - they translate the diphthong directly into english.. So for example - the player Petros Mantalos should be Petros Madalos.

So poor old Chanti should actually read in English 'Xadi' or 'Hadi.' I have explained this to Greeks many times and tried to change this ridiculous thing and while they all agreed something should be done - no one - even in academic circles could be bothered.

Holebas is pronounced correctly in Portugal.
The other guy ( ) no.

How did you guys say his name? Ch -arist -eas?

Sometimes "cha", sometimes "Ca" which is something like "Ka".

Yea, same in the UK. 

[Covenant]

Agree with you both. Not only that, half there team has just jumped ship!

Johansson
Lazaros
Kone

Well, they always can buy better players...

[Godescalco]

What is ridiculous is that Greeks allow there names to be spelt in English with a 'ch' when it should either be a 'x' or 'h.'

I wouldn't say it's ridiculous. It's actually the way the letter "chi" has been traditionally transliterated into the Latin alphabet since the Classical Age. An aspirated "k" sound in Greek but usually having a normal "k" sound in Latin and all its daughter tongues.

Chronology, Christology, Chiropractic, Tauromachy, etc.

The problem, so to speak, is that since the official adoption of the Demotic tongue in the 70's, instead of the literary (and classical inspired) Katharevousa, there's not a single official transliteration rule of Greek into the Roman alphabet.

That's why you have the beta being transliterated as "v", the real sound of beta in modern Greek, but which classically has the value of "b", the same with all the iotization of classical diphthongs "oi, ei," etc., and long vowels such as eta which now are just commonly transliterated as "i", the absence of the aspirated initial H, etc. (Iraklis instead of Heracles, Omonia instead of Omonoia or Omonoea). This happens in order to reflect more closely the pronunciation of modern Greek but it has also created some difficulties.

You have the same name, for instance, with two transilaterations. A classical one, "Aristoteles," and a modern one "Aristotelis." And so on. There's not an easy solution to this.

[Faliro]

What is ridiculous is that Greeks allow there names to be spelt in English with a 'ch' when it should either be a 'x' or 'h.'

I wouldn't say it's ridiculous. It's actually the way the letter "chi" has been traditionally transliterated into the Latin alphabet since the Classical Age. An aspirated "k" sound in Greek but usually having a normal "k" sound in Latin and all its daughter tongues.

Chronology, Christology, Chiropractic, Tauromachy, etc.

The problem, so to speak, is that since the official adoption of the Demotic tongue in the 70's, instead of the literary (and classical inspired) Katharevousa, there's not a single official transliteration rule of Greek into the Roman alphabet.

Indeed, but that is the problem - it depends what vowel follows. One of the most common names in Greece for example is Χαράλαμπος - Haralambos. No one bothers with all that. So what people do is shorten it to Xari - actually pronounced Hari. So again - Greeks will give the incorrect Charalambos spelling in English - meaning most people abroad will incorrectly call them Chara - lambos instead of the correct Haralambos.  I understand Greek has been through a washing machine - but seriously - would it be that hard to tell people - the 'X' in Greek is a 'Ha' sound when followed by an 'a' ? When the X is followed by an 'e' than like Xenidis - then the sound is more 'ks' - 'ksenidis' fair enough - but can we just educate the world as Greeks this is how the language goes instead of all this 'ch' business?  For example the Catalan player Xavi. English had to ask politely - how is that pronounced - they were told 'shaby' - fair enough. We learnt. Why can't the Greeks keep the X in place and just let others learn how it is said instead of all this transliteration? Why do greeks always have to leave a grey area?

When I was kid - I remember still seen signs for Athens in Katharevousa. Αθήναι

Anyways it is all fucked up - just irritates me. Surely you would want your name pronounced properly..  I remember I watched a Europa League game years ago and Greek team was playing and the commentator was English and really confident in his tone - you know the type.. and then he starts saying the names.. Karagounishhhh to Katshhouranishhh - back to Goumassshhh. I was like.. he thinks these guys are Portuguese?? 

[Faliro]

Agree with you both. Not only that, half there team has just jumped ship!

Johansson
Lazaros
Kone

Well, they always can buy better players...

True.. but look at this way - they just bought Livaja - for me one of their crapper players and Arajuo may leave.. with a few others... They seem to be going backwards.. Anyways, good news for me. Don't want them to win any more games than they have to. 

[Godescalco]

Anyways it is all fucked up - just irritates me. Surely you would want your name pronounced properly...

Sure but the question is not that simple.

Orthography is not something straightforward. Even when you don't have transliteration problems derived from having different alphabets, you have irregularities or different ways to spell sounds even in languages written with the Latin script.

Take Albanian, for instance. How often have you heard people saying the name Granit Xhaka correctly? It sounds "Graneet Djaka" in Albanian but more often then not you hear commentators and people in the news saying "Shaka." Why? Because they didn't bother to learn that in Albanian the sounds are written differently, just as English, French, Spanish or German are different. The same with Turkish names written in Latin script. Or Portuguese names with nasal diphthongs (João, Guimarães, etc.) More often than not, commentators say them all wrong, despite the fact that the alphabet is the same.

You can't just transliterate everying into neutral IPA (International Phonetic Alphabet), unless it's for education purposes. Every language has its traditions and idiosyncracies. More often than not you have to learn how to say things properly, instead of just being lazy and reading it as it is. In any language.

Greek is no different, despite the transliteration irregularities into the Latin alphabet. I'm a fan of the Classical and traditional transliteration of Greek, for instance, although I recognize it makes reading it properly, with modern Demotic pronuncation, more difficult. In any case, it's not a black and white issue.

[Faliro]

Anyways it is all fucked up - just irritates me. Surely you would want your name pronounced properly...

Sure but the question is not that simple.

Orthography is not something straightforward. Even when you don't have transliteration problems derived from having different alphabets, you have irregularities or different ways to spell sounds even in languages written with the Latin script.

Take Albanian, for instance. How often have you heard people saying the name Granit Xhaka correctly? It sounds "Graneet Djaka" in Albanian but more often then not you hear commentators and people in the news saying "Shaka." Why? Because they didn't bother to learn that in Albanian the sounds are written differently, just as English, French, Spanish or German are different. The same with Turkish names written in Latin script. Or Portuguese names with nasal diphthongs (João, Guimarães, etc.) More often than not, commentators say them all wrong, despite the fact that the alphabet is the same.

You can't just transliterate everying into neutral IPA (International Phonetic Alphabet), unless it's for education purposes. Every language has its traditions and idiosyncracies. More often than not you have to learn how to say things properly, instead of just being lazy and reading it as it is. In any language.

Greek is no different, despite the transliteration irregularities into the Latin alphabet. I'm a fan of the Classical and traditional transliteration of Greek, for instance, although I recognize it makes reading it properly, with modern Demotic pronuncation, more difficult. In any case, it's not a black and white issue.

Sure but the Greeks don't need to sacrifice their name in greek - just make it more simple in Latin. What would be the problem with 'Cholevas' spelling his name with the original Xei and just call himself Xolevas in English? That would also respect the original form of the X. I understand the Chi has some pedigree due to ancient influences but we are already in a fucked up place when in actual fact the two most common sounds from X are 'ks' or 'h' - neither of which sound like 'chi.'

Just really annoys me. My Papou was from the capital of the Tsakonian speaking part of Greece - you should hear that language being spoken by the few left that still speak it..

[Festivus]

Charisteas?! Don't mention that name 

[StellaRojas]

I certainly would have loved to hear how the Argentinean commentator pronounced Bicakcic.

[Faliro]

I certainly would have loved to hear how the Argentinean commentator pronounced Bicakcic.

Zdjelar I always used to say - 'that serb you know.. dzdzjel-dar..'

[StellaRojas]

I certainly would have loved to hear how the Argentinean commentator pronounced Bicakcic.

Zdjelar I always used to say - 'that serb you know.. dzdzjel-dar..'

Could have just said Sasha.

[Godescalco]

Sure but the Greeks don't need to sacrifice their name in greek - just make it more simple in Latin. What would be the problem with 'Cholevas' spelling his name with the original Xei and just call himself Xolevas in English? That would also respect the original form of the X. I understand the Chi has some pedigree due to ancient influences but we are already in a fucked up place when in actual fact the two most common sounds from X are 'ks' or 'h' - neither of which sound like 'chi.'

Spelling the name Xolevas wouldn't solve anything because the letter "x" has a variety of possible sounds in English and most western languages. Some people would read it "Sholevas", others "Ksolevas" and so on. Furthermore, there's no precedent in transliterating the Greek letter "chi" as "x" in the Latin script.

Spelling it as "Holevas" might be slightly better but the "h" doesn't quite capture the guttural aspiration of the letter "chi." However, the digraph "ch" has been used to transliterate the "chi" letter since Roman times, so it's just a matter of proper education to be able to read it as an aspirated "k", which is what it is. So we're back to round one: in order to read someone's name properly, it's not enough that it's written as closely as it actually sounds (which is mainly impossible to begin with), but that the person reading it makes an effort to learn it. The same way we all make an effort to read an English name properly which, more often than not, cannot be discerned by orthography alone, given the vast irregularities of the English language.

Just really annoys me. My Papou was from the capital of the Tsakonian speaking part of Greece - you should hear that language being spoken by the few left that still speak it..

Your grandfather was from Sparta? That's cool.

I know Tsakonian is a variant that descends from the old Doric Greek and not Athenian or Attic Greek. I've just seen a few words here and there.

[Faliro]

Spelling the name Xolevas wouldn't solve anything because the letter "x" has a variety of possible sounds in English and most western languages. Some people would read it "Sholevas", others "Ksolevas" and so on. Furthermore, there's no precedent in transliterating the Greek letter "chi" as "x" in the Latin script.

Same for the use of the X in spanish. It drifts from sound to sound. The point is they still use the X and not some rough idea of what the X should sound like - which is what Greek into English does. Also if someone uses the H as English do in the word 'how' - that is exactly the sound for Xolebas.

Your grandfather was from Sparta? That's cool.

I know Tsakonian is a variant that descends from the old Doric Greek and not Athenian or Attic Greek. I've just seen a few words here and there.

Haha, no the centre of Tsakonian is Leonidio and that is where he is from.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0nxD4GDJXCw

The sound is fairly strange - sounds slavic to my ear:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q4RcEjf9YOM

[Calcio]

Sporting is supposedly after Paschalakis. Is he any good?