Hellas futebol

[Covenant]

I would buy Aris.

[Covenant]

Hellas football never fails to amaze me.

I know what you mean. Like a psychedelic soap opera. BTW you probably remember Kougias from years ago when I showed a picture of him getting attacked by the fans of his own club while at Panaxaiki..



To think.. he was president of AEK a few times..

Which club he really like? AEK?

[Faliro]

Hellas football never fails to amaze me.

I know what you mean. Like a psychedelic soap opera. BTW you probably remember Kougias from years ago when I showed a picture of him getting attacked by the fans of his own club while at Panaxaiki..



To think.. he was president of AEK a few times..

Which club he really like? AEK?

Bizarrely I think Olympiacos. 
The other clubs went apoplectic when he defended Marinakis and said Olympiacos win because we have the best team. Also Kougias has a vendetta against Melissanidis. Btw Marinakis was fully acquitted this week of all charges against him that have been going on for years to do with a boat full of drugs.. the Noor1..

[Calcio]

Hellas football never fails to amaze me.

I know what you mean. Like a psychedelic soap opera. BTW you probably remember Kougias from years ago when I showed a picture of him getting attacked by the fans of his own club while at Panaxaiki..



To think.. he was president of AEK a few times..

Talking about it, why isnt Panachaiki a bigger club?

Patras is pretty big and it seems like theres a lot of potential there?

FYI when I say that hellas football amazes me, this is also the kind of stuff. Theres enormous potential in the league, but it seems new formed clubs or clubs from villages get to actually play at the top while bigger fanbases are left to roth.

So many people ask this question - Greek and foreign alike. Paras is a powerful city. The team has dedicated fans. There is huge potential there. The only thing I can come up with is the complete lack of professionalism concerning those who own the club. I lost count of the amount of decent managers that have quit that team saying the owners are not allowing them to do their job. It seems the owners do all they can to make the club fail.

You are right about your analysis too. How the fuck Levadiakos stayed in the top flight for so long.. Look at Apollon Smyrnis with their 3 fans...This is where I believe corruption may come in. Remember when suddenly Asteras Tripoli became a thing out if nowhere? A team filled with decent Argentinians and south Americans that remained unbeaten at home for years? This mysterious Greek guy called Bakos owns them - a guy that became rich somewhere in the Arab East? Many suggested he was cleaning money for an even bigger client... OK.. you get small  teams who were just superbly run like Ergotelis/ Panaitolikos etc but I suspect many of these smaller teams were money cleaning operations.. teams like Kavala, Olympiakos Bolou, Xanthi etc. As it stands of course teams like Panaxaiki should be in the Super League,  but they never make it..

Funilly enough you named two teams that have owners, and one of them is an egyptian guy that owns a club in his homeland.

Asteras looks like a very interesting case.

Anyways, if I was a rich man I would buy a greek team without a doubt. Albeit it would be one with a extensive past and a loyal fanbase that can actually be grown.

Asteras is a bizarre case. Really ambiguous what went on there. Not much investigative journalism in Greece. 

I often wonder which team I would buy in Greece if i was rich too. 

Kalamata would be a fun one to own. Nice part of the world. Loyal fans. Could have a killer academy down there as people are very strong around there. Could also build a very good little stadium. Greece doesn't have many highly populated plated places so options are limited.

You obviously have more knowledge than me when it comes to Greece and greek footbal,, wasn't expecting Kalamata in your "picks".

Without an order, and only going be aesthetics and little stuff that I've read/learned, it would be the following:

- Aris: I think my history posting in this topic shows that I've always admired them. Potential for the new stadium and loyal fanbase.

- Iraklis: return the club where they are supposed to be. Loyal fanbase and potential for a new stadium (I'm aware of the Kaftanzoglio, but I think its too big)

- OFI: so much good stuff here. Crete, loyal fanbase, potential new stadium and also historic club

- Volos: doing what the city couldnt do, buy Niki, Oly and merge with NPS. Theres a lot of potential here with a stadium already in place

- Larisa: do I need to say anything?

- Chania: theres something that attracts me to this club. Potential new stadium in an island that already has OFI and Ergotellis. Fun rivalries.

- Panachaiki: already discussed

- Ionikos: I think they could be a feeder type project

- Trikala: historic club (I think?) with potential

- Kalamata: really curious about your perspective

- Panionios: dont really need to make a case


Please indulge me forward. Im loving this discussion.

[Faliro]

You obviously have more knowledge than me when it comes to Greece and greek footbal,, wasn't expecting Kalamata in your "picks".

Well I have to admit I am a bit biased to that part of Greece, my grandfather was from Kynouria.

Without an order, and only going be aesthetics and little stuff that I've read/learned, it would be the following:

- Aris: I think my history posting in this topic shows that I've always admired them. Potential for the new stadium and loyal fanbase.

I think the best option. You can rebuild the Xarilaou at minimum cost and have a new 28k stadium there. Not only that - you will fill that stadium to capacity many times a year. All the Europa / CL games will be sold out - plus all the cup games with the other 4 big clubs, plus the league derbies with the same 4 will be sell outs. Because of the playoffs - you will most likely have around at least 2 home games with each of the big 4 per season in the league alone. The club will earn a lot of money run properly. Huge potential. The God of War is probably the one you want - an original team of Salonika and not some refugee team from Asia Minor like AEK/ PAOK/ Panionios/Apollon/Kalamaria etc etc. Best bet would be wrestling 51% of the shares off Karipidis and his wife.. Would be a super product to own.

Iraklis: return the club where they are supposed to be. Loyal fanbase and potential for a new stadium (I'm aware of the Kaftanzoglio, but I think its too big)

I am not so keen on them for political reasons. Firstly you are correct - the Kaftanzoglou is far too big for them and they were rumoured to be ambitious develop a near by plot they own a few meters from the stadium which has their athletic centre. You can probably build a decent 15k stadium there which is more than enough for what is left of their fans:



As for the club itself it is in the unfortunate position of never being relegated due to performance on the pitch but always due to point reductions due to financial problems.. However, I remember one time - there fans marched on Salonika (they do that often..) and they threatened the EPO/Greek government that unless their points were returned - they would join the league of Republic of North Macedonia - a sworn enemy of the Greek state. After that I lost all respect for them and all those Che Guevara banners they have at their games made more sense to me..

- OFI: so much good stuff here. Crete, loyal fanbase, potential new stadium and also historic club

Super club to have. I would 100% build them a new stadium of around 15k-20k capacity but near the urban sprawl of Iraklio - not out in the middle of no where like Xanthi did when they abandoned their superb urban AOX stadium. Cretans are exceptionally loyal and would adore a better facility if given the option. However, it seems many OFI fans like their crummy old stadium.. There is still a bit you can do with it but it would involve building over more of the cemetery..



Building there you can probably get the capacity up to 12k.

- Volos: doing what the city couldnt do, buy Niki, Oly and merge with NPS. Theres a lot of potential here with a stadium already in place

True.. it is a shame that guy Beos is still so involved with everything in that city.. Also the Oly/Niki fans detest each other and detest NPS even more.. Of course all these fans should look at things logically and unite into one team. I was thinking the badges and colours could be united fairly easily - NPS has already done the colours bit... It just seems they are too tribal in that city.. Beos wants to build a new stadium for NPS. He even made some rudimentary plans. If he does start construction, uniting the 3 may become more of a reality..

Larisa: do I need to say anything?

So so unfortunate the AEL fans 1/ Detest the state of the art AEL arena - I have never been there but they say it is too cold.. 2/ Detest Kougias... AEL has massive potential and history.

Chania: theres something that attracts me to this club. Potential new stadium in an island that already has OFI and Ergotellis. Fun rivalries.

Agreed. Crete in general has massive potential. Like Mallorcans however - they are not smart with stadia (I still can't believe Mallorca abandoned the Sitja... stupid stupid decision). Xania however has the Perivolia stadium that has massive potential. Also Xania is just a lovely town anyway. Would be a good investment. The island has strong links to Olympiacos too. 

Panachaiki: already discussed

Old school stadium, like the stadium of Serres (see below). Can finish the stadium off (they are missing a stand behind the goal) and just let the team fly. Only bad management has stopped that club. It has fans, a big city with airport, ferry terminal, excellent motorway connections etc etc.. It is ready to be taken over by someone who has an IQ over 100.

Ionikos: I think they could be a feeder type project

Super little urban club with a sweet little japanese style stadium: Neapoli. These clubs are much abused. For example there used to be a club called Xalkidona FC. It was in the Super League. Atromitos merged with it to steal its Super League status (a common trick clubs use in Greece to get promoted artificially or write off debts (Iraklis have done this a few times)).. I don't think the place has enough fans. BTW Halkidona FC restarted itself as an amateur team the same way Wimbledon FC did when they were trashed by the merger with Milton Keynes.

Trikala: historic club (I think?) with potential

This is one I would be tempted by. Fortounis is from there.    Beautiful city (by Greek mainland standards..) and I agree a lot of potential. I think their crest is pretty iconic, but I would build a football specific stadium for them. Their stadium is actually very cool, but i cant stand the running track.. Trikala are more progressive than Volos. The city was divided between two clubs: Achilles and AET. They merged in 63 for the common good. Trikala have massively underachieved over the years.

Kalamata: really curious about your perspective

Lovely prosperous city in its own weird humid climatic belt with a good beach running most the length of the city. The city has stadiums, yacht harbours, airport and only 2.5 hours from Athens thanks to the new motorway! The Peloponnese needs a club the the entire peninsular can get behind. Maybe a club to unite the entire place somehow. If not Panaxaiki, why not Kalamata? Loyal fans. Locals are very authentic. Would be great to see Kalamata in the Super League again. Finally Kalamata is always improving itself and growing. It has a curious urban plan. I enjoyed staying there.

Panionios: dont really need to make a case

Yes. Easy choice. I never liked the Panionios stadium. Such a super plot - so much space - and such a cheap disaster of a disaster. They don't want to get rid of the athletics track because of their athletic department.. The stadium they proposed a while ago was superb, but the main investor abandoned the club leaving them in freefall..

Please indulge me forward. Im loving this discussion.

Four more that would tempt me if I was a millionaire.

1/ Serres (Panserraikos). Super stadium that with not much money could be even better:



City has potential to grow.

2/ Nafplion. Perhaps one of the most beautiful cities in Greece. Again, beautiful part of the world, former capital of Greece. Club there has a stupid name imo:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pannafpliakos_F.C.

I would simply name the club after a mythological hero from the region or a Greek War of Indepedence hero.  Maybe something to do with the name of the region in which it sits, which for me is one of the coolest names in the world, the Argolid. The city needs a nice football specific stadium. That a city that has everything. A proper 1830s old quarter with some buildings even older than that. A newer area - clean and wealthy with tonnes of shops. The city has beaches, ports. I would be happy to invest there. A very very good place to invest.

3/ SPARTA!!!!! A/ Would redesign their stupid logo to a simple 'Λ.' Gold on a red background. Gold to represent bronze weapons and red for the colour of ancient spartan cloaks. B/ Move to a new football specific stadium of around 10k-15k and name it after the bottomless pit; Kaiadas (Καιάδας) that ancient Spartans would chuck their enemies into. C/ Colours would be red and gold. If any idea can unite the people of the Peloponnese - it is this one. Also Sparti is near the geographic centre of the Peloponnese. Notice how Asteras try the same and attempt to speak for the whole of the Peloponnese by writing "Morias" on their stand.. the medieval name for the Peloponnese..



4/ Xalkida. Every Greek I know loves this city with its 'crazy waters.'







Urban and fairly big. Terrible footballing history.

Finally - special mention to Kavala. A genuinely beautiful city - looks like a type of Southern French city...







They had a superb team and fans but I am not sure I could ever remove the image of match fixing, Koriopolis Scandal,  for which they were relegated to the amateur divisions along with Olympiakos Volou..

Now to watch AEK vs Aris! Maybe Mitroglou will play! Aris playing in turquoise.

[Calcio]

You obviously have more knowledge than me when it comes to Greece and greek footbal,, wasn't expecting Kalamata in your "picks".

Fantastic wright up.

I think Trikala just went up on my list! 

Kavala looks gorgeous.

[Faliro]

Fantastic wright up.

I think Trikala just went up on my list! 

Kavala looks gorgeous.

Yea, Kavala is a gem with Thassos just a short ferry ride away opposite. Was quite sad to see them go down. Played ultra attacking football like Olympiakos Volou. Often beat the bigger clubs. Made many enemies.

-------------------------------------------------------------

AEK 0
Aris 2

A game that featured many Latin players: 5 Portuguese players: Bruno Gama, Simoes, Lopes, Xande Silva (this guy has talent), Oliveira. 3 Argentines: Garcia, Mancini, Bertoglio. 2 Brazilians: Sasha and Bruno (ex Oly) 2 Spaniards: Cuesta and Matilla. 1 West Indian: Levi Garcia... and many other nationalities..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HgCv3qXHpVw

PAOK 2
Apollon 2

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L8C_MN38C4A

Both PAOK and AEK getting kicked in the face for not buying decent defenders.

[Calcio]

Fantastic wright up.

I think Trikala just went up on my list! 

Kavala looks gorgeous.

Do you know anything about Thesprotos FC? I came across them and was suprised that they had Juan Ramón Rocha as their manager.

[Festivus]

Faliro, allow me to ask you a rather silly question:

How would Ancient Greeks feel about modern day Greece if they travelled through time to the year of 2021, in your opinion?

[Faliro]

Fantastic wright up.

I think Trikala just went up on my list! 

Kavala looks gorgeous.

Do you know anything about Thesprotos FC? I came across them and was suprised that they had Juan Ramón Rocha as their manager.

Not heard of these guys before. I have no idea why Rocha went there. Maybe they have a rich owner, but I don't recognise the name.

[Faliro]

Faliro, allow me to ask you a rather silly question:

How would Ancient Greeks feel about modern day Greece if they travelled through time to the year of 2021, in your opinion?

Not a silly question at all. I often wonder this myself. Let's imagine a Greek from Greece's Golden Age (4th Century BC) visits modern Athens in 2021.

Firstly I think the ancient Greek would recognise the faces of modern Greeks. Those big heavy eyes, fairly well built physiques and general colouring. He would definitely recognise the faces of ancient Greeks in modern Greeks. It would have definitely benefitted modern Greeks if Greeks had genetically mixed with more cultures over the last 2500 years, but alas they didn't..

Sensationally, the language would be just about understandable too (written and spoken) as long as the ancient Greek doesn't meet too many idiot ignorant Greeks - you know the type who wont recognise the word 'Mitroglou' unless you heavily stress the last syllable (even though the stress should be at the beginning of Mitroglou's name: Μήτρογλου.  As long as the ancient Greek meets a modern Greek with an IQ over 100, they should be able to converse and work out a structure to communicate effectively. That is mind-blowing. I doubt even a medieval Brit would be able to communicate well with a modern Brit - let alone a Brit from 400 BC... Also the Ancient Greek would be able to read road signs etc. He would also recognise a lot of Greek first names in modern Athens. Themistokles, Demetris, Anastasia, Orestes, Perikles, Vassilios, Andreas, Nikos (Nikon), Alexandros etc etc.. Stefanos for example is a common a first name in modern Greece as it was in 4th Century Athens... This stele to Stefanos (Stefanos means wreath crown):



The concrete jungle of Athens itself will be a hardcore experience for the 4th Century Athenian although bizarrely I think he would be impressed by the raw power of the city compared to what he knew.. The destruction of the Parthenon - the sacred way to the Parthenon missing the 1000s of votives and memorials - the sacred temples and caves to the mystery cults some gone, some still there but weathered and missing the interiors.. - the missing statues across the city - this would shock him. But he would see remnants everywhere of them - and lit up and celebrated by modern Greeks. He would be deeply heartened to see almost all of Greece's museums dedicated to ancient works of his era and little to no museums containing anything Turkish or Venetian. He would be disgusted and offended at the debunked 19th century anglo-german concept that modern Greeks have zero connection to ancient Greeks.

Greeks would explain to him the various occupations - how Greeks as a people barely survived the Turks etc etc.. This could be a difficult point for the Ancient Greek but I like to think he would be happy that the Greeks survived at all and he would understand the concept due to Greeks of his period almost being wiped off the face of earth by the Persians. Also much of the street plan of Plaka is the same as ancient Greece - the greeks simply replaced the houses every 200 years.. the road layout under the acropolis he would recognise.. He would also understand the concept of leaving the Parthenon as a beautiful ruin as opposed to rebuilding it. Perikles had to fight off many many Athenians who believed the old destroyed Parthenon (destroyed by the Persians) should be left as it is - half destroyed - as a beautiful reminder to the Athenians' survival and bravery and not be rebuilt. Needless to say Perikles won the argument and rebuilt the Parthenon much to their annoyance..

He would recognise the key Greek cuisine - souvlaki was common in ancient Greece. However he would probably be confused by the extreme Greek coffee consumption. Music.. I am not sure he would know what to do with that.  Clothes... he would recognise the Greeks wearing white linen on islands like Mykonos in the summer, but not the cut of the clothes. Ancient Greeks wore linen more than any other material.

The technology would impress him - but not blow his mind completely. Ancient Greeks - especially from Athens were very technically minded. I remember reading that when lightening struck ancient Sparta - the Spartans would fear Zeus was angry. When lightening would strike ancient Athens, many Athenians would believe that simply two different climatic belts were merging above their heads.. He would fully understand the concepts of cinema, organised sports, bars, restaurants, apartments, government, lawyers, laws, schooling, religious holidays (he may be a little dismayed the Greeks abandoned their Gods to adopt the desert God of the Hebrews..). He would recognise the Olympiacos logo... 

I imagine him being upset at the destruction of his world and the near extinction of the Greek peoples. I imagine him being reflective at how Greeks have sought to continue certain traditions - how the Barbarians of Europe accepted Greek concepts and evolved them and even based their societies on them. I imagine him being excited by the technology. I think he would feel a stranger to an extent but over the months and years - he would feel part of Greece again - the way of the people and how they pour olive oil on everything, the raw commercialism and also the traditions and culture. He would understand the evolution. The landscape, the sea.. Especially the forests, whether pine or oak laden.. he would recognise them.

Now a modern sloppy PS5 playing Greek 19 year old going back to 4th Century Athens.. That would be hilarious. There is a chance he could starve to death.. 

[Festivus]

Faliro, allow me to ask you a rather silly question:

How would Ancient Greeks feel about modern day Greece if they travelled through time to the year of 2021, in your opinion?

Not a silly question at all. I often wonder this myself. Let's imagine a Greek from Greece's Golden Age (4th Century BC) visits modern Athens in 2021.

Firstly I think the ancient Greek would recognise the faces of modern Greeks. Those big heavy eyes, fairly well built physiques and general colouring. He would definitely recognise the faces of ancient Greeks in modern Greeks. It would have definitely benefitted modern Greeks if Greeks had genetically mixed with more cultures over the last 2500 years, but alas they didn't..

Sensationally, the language would be just about understandable too (written and spoken) as long as the ancient Greek doesn't meet too many idiot ignorant Greeks - you know the type who wont recognise the word 'Mitroglou' unless you heavily stress the last syllable (even though the stress should be at the beginning of Mitroglou's name: Μήτρογλου.  As long as the ancient Greek meets a modern Greek with an IQ over 100, they should be able to converse and work out a structure to communicate effectively. That is mind-blowing. I doubt even a medieval Brit would be able to communicate well with a modern Brit - let alone a Brit from 400 BC... Also the Ancient Greek would be able to read road signs etc. He would also recognise a lot of Greek first names in modern Athens. Themistokles, Demetris, Anastasia, Orestes, Perikles, Vassilios, Andreas, Nikos (Nikon), Alexandros etc etc.. Stefanos for example is a common a first name in modern Greece as it was in 4th Century Athens... This stele to Stefanos (Stefanos means wreath crown):



The concrete jungle of Athens itself will be a hardcore experience for the 4th Century Athenian although bizarrely I think he would be impressed by the raw power of the city compared to what he knew.. The destruction of the Parthenon - the sacred way to the Parthenon missing the 1000s of votives and memorials - the sacred temples and caves to the mystery cults some gone, some still there but weathered and missing the interiors.. - the missing statues across the city - this would shock him. But he would see remnants everywhere of them - and lit up and celebrated by modern Greeks. He would be deeply heartened to see almost all of Greece's museums dedicated to ancient works of his era and little to no museums containing anything Turkish or Venetian. He would be disgusted and offended at the debunked 19th century anglo-german concept that modern Greeks have zero connection to ancient Greeks.

Greeks would explain to him the various occupations - how Greeks as a people barely survived the Turks etc etc.. This could be a difficult point for the Ancient Greek but I like to think he would be happy that the Greeks survived at all and he would understand the concept due to Greeks of his period almost being wiped off the face of earth by the Persians. Also much of the street plan of Plaka is the same as ancient Greece - the greeks simply replaced the houses every 200 years.. the road layout under the acropolis he would recognise.. He would also understand the concept of leaving the Parthenon as a beautiful ruin as opposed to rebuilding it. Perikles had to fight off many many Athenians who believed the old destroyed Parthenon (destroyed by the Persians) should be left as it is - half destroyed - as a beautiful reminder to the Athenians' survival and bravery and not be rebuilt. Needless to say Perikles won the argument and rebuilt the Parthenon much to their annoyance..

He would recognise the key Greek cuisine - souvlaki was common in ancient Greece. However he would probably be confused by the extreme Greek coffee consumption. Music.. I am not sure he would know what to do with that.  Clothes... he would recognise the Greeks wearing white linen on islands like Mykonos in the summer, but not the cut of the clothes. Ancient Greeks wore linen more than any other material.

The technology would impress him - but not blow his mind completely. Ancient Greeks - especially from Athens were very technically minded. I remember reading that when lightening struck ancient Sparta - the Spartans would fear Zeus was angry. When lightening would strike ancient Athens, many Athenians would believe that simply two different climatic belts were merging above their heads.. He would fully understand the concepts of cinema, organised sports, bars, restaurants, apartments, government, lawyers, laws, schooling, religious holidays (he may be a little dismayed the Greeks abandoned their Gods to adopt the desert God of the Hebrews..). He would recognise the Olympiacos logo... 

I imagine him being upset at the destruction of his world and the near extinction of the Greek peoples. I imagine him being reflective at how Greeks have sought to continue certain traditions - how the Barbarians of Europe accepted Greek concepts and evolved them and even based their societies on them. I imagine him being excited by the technology. I think he would feel a stranger to an extent but over the months and years - he would feel part of Greece again - the way of the people and how they pour olive oil on everything, the raw commercialism and also the traditions and culture. He would understand the evolution. The landscape, the sea.. Especially the forests, whether pine or oak laden.. he would recognise them.

Now a modern sloppy PS5 playing Greek 19 year old going back to 4th Century Athens.. That would be hilarious. There is a chance he could starve to death.. 

Thank you for spending a significant amount of time with such a long and detailed answer to my question!

You've addressed a lot of points, but now I'm wondering how they would feel about things like the EU, NATO and the UN and Greece's role in them. How would they feel, in your opinion?

Sometime ago I saw someone asking what Salazar would feel about modern day Portugal if he came back to life today. And basically someone said he'd be angry and disappointed at Portugal being a member of something like the EU and allowing the Euro to replace the Escudo. Among other things. That being said, that would probably be the only thing I'd agree with Salazar on.

And, in defense of the 19 year old boy, I think most people nowadays wouldn't survive if they traveled back in time to hundreds or thousands of years ago. The world was completely different back then. Depending on where you'd end up, I think you'd might get killed for giving someone the wrong look or arrested or enslaved for being a foreigner, which means you could be a spy or something like that.

[Faliro]

Thank you for spending a significant amount of time with such a long and detailed answer to my question!

You've addressed a lot of points, but now I'm wondering how they would feel about things like the EU, NATO and the UN and Greece's role in them. How would they feel, in your opinion?

Sometime ago I saw someone asking what Salazar would feel about modern day Portugal if he came back to life today. And basically someone said he'd be angry and disappointed at Portugal being a member of something like the EU and allowing the Euro to replace the Escudo. Among other things. That being said, that would probably be the only thing I'd agree with Salazar on.

And, in defense of the 19 year old boy, I think most people nowadays wouldn't survive if they traveled back in time to hundreds or thousands of years ago. The world was completely different back then. Depending on where you'd end up, I think you'd might get killed for giving someone the wrong look or arrested or enslaved for being a foreigner, which means you could be a spy or something like that.

As far as the EU goes, there is a 90% chance he would be against it. Whether it is the Persians, Romans, Turks, Venetians, Slavs, Germans etc - Greeks despise the idea of being controlled externally or ruled by non Greeks and one of the only reasons Greeks exist at all today is due their dislike of supranational organisations. Persia was a type of EU - an EU of the East. The Greeks risked their lives to break free. Same with the brutal Ottoman Empire. The Greeks tolerated Rome because they had no choice after the sacking of Corinth, but as soon as they were able to break away - they did and turned the Roman Byzantine Empire into a purely Greek vehicle in less than 100 years. The ancient Greek would struggle to understand why Greece gave up its hard fought independence to Brussels. He would be confused how the Greeks voted in a referendum to stop paying Brussels but Tsipras ignored their vote (we would have to explain the concept of communism to him although in some ways Spartans were proto-communists). Even further - Greeks do not even like being ruled by other Greeks further away from them.. Athenian expedition, Delian League, Macedonia - Greeks have often spilled blood to not be remotely ruled by other Greeks. The Athenian would have believed that the ultimate freedom would be Greeks being able to vote on Greek matters without any outside interference.

NATO and the UN.. not sure. He wouldn't like the idea of being forced to pay NATO any money - especially as they cannot stop Turks invading Greek territory. Seems fraudulent. I doubt he would fear Russia like NATO does anyway. UN? Meh.. again, very global where nations are drowned out unless the trend suits.

There are always minorities who enjoy being oppressed. In the Greek revolution, a fair few wealthy Greeks tried to convince the Greek revolutionaries to put down their weapons and submit to the Turks. Certain Greeks instructed the Athenians not to anger the Persian empire and submit... So I am sure some Portuguese and Greeks from the past would feel comfortable with the power taken out their hands and placed in the hands of foreigners, however I doubt they would ever make up a majority. I mean the very concept of a descendant of a goth telling a Greek or Portuguese guy what species of fish he is allowed to fish in his own waters - telling a Greek/Portuguese farmer what he he is allowed to grow - when he is allowed to take the covid vaccine etc... it is simply absurd. The EU has only survived due to a lack of democracy.

[Covenant]

Faliro, what you think about Cypriot Championship?

What happened to APOEL?

[Faliro]

Faliro, what you think about Cypriot Championship?

What happened to APOEL?

It seems the Cypriots and Greeks are going to have face reality and realise the island the will not be unified. Erdogan said this week he is seeking a two state outcome. Therefore, I would be happy to allow APEOL and one other into the Greek championship as happened in the 70s.